Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

[shttymcgee]

[quote=Sven Draconian;2041882563][quote=rooney8;2041881363]

It should be more like.
.____________H______________
|___________________________|

BOOM!
^..<
^......<...<....<
^.....................<...<...<..SS
^
^hb>>>
^
^
^
^
HB*

Quote:

Now you have that DB doing hip flips back and forth...if he's lucky. As I said before, there is no "Good" angle for a free runner up the sideline. No matter what the defender does...he's wrong. But that isn't the focus, because the way Madden has it now is fine. The goal is to STOP LETTING THE RUNNERS UP THE SIDELINE.

Agree with the bolded.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Nice job breaking down some run responsibilities, and you're absolutely right about attacking the near hip. Of course, actual techniques for deciding whether to play over or under blocks is a little more complicated (probably not necessary to be discussed since taking the rt pursuit will normally put the player in the proper position). One thing I question though is making man-to-man defensive backs in a position of force responsibility. I feel that the emol should have force because its easy for offenses to use formations (compressed or stacked) to make cloud force virtually impossible (especially in the "fast" screen game). Also, that force DB is gonna be seriously stressed by inside releases by plus-split receivers. In my experience, its best to just in-effect lose the DB's in the run game if playing man-to-man. However, I think it's possible to have them play force if they're in an outside trail position (2 man).

But what if the EMOL isn't in position to force the ball, such as....

.................$............................$
........L....................L............L
C.......................E........N.......E......L. .........................C
WR.................LT..LG..C..RG..RT...TE......... ...........WR
.......WR.....................Q................... ..........................
...............................,H

3-4 Under front. Cover 1 (Sky to strong side).
On a run to the offensive left, the end is the EMOL and that linebacker is in coverage. He has to be the force player, because there is nobody else.

You can ge the same effect with a lot of formations where you get the defensive end on an inside gap, such as..
............$.....................$
...................L.........L
C............E..T.....N......E............N....... .....C
WR...........T..G..C..G..T..TE..................
.......................Q.....................WR... ......WR
.......................H

It can be a man with a blitz, or cover 1. Either way, the end is sealed on a run play and the in-man -coverage nickle back (or "safety" or "linebacker" whatever personel you're in) has to force the run.


As to the compressed formation- That's why they're so popular now. As Cover 1 has become more and more prevelant in the NFL (it's tapering off a bit now) offenses went to those compressed looks, both to run pick routes against man, but also to get a nice seal on that force player and make thecorner play force....and NFL corners usually aren't aggressive run defenders.

The spread stuff is also a reason for a rise in cover 4. It can, in effect, be loose man, but it puts the safeties in a better position to read high hat/low hat and come up on the run.

[shttymcgee]

In the first example, I would never displace the 5 technique LB, instead I would spin the safety down to take care of the slot, either pre or post-snap and let the other safety play free and have the 9 lock up on the TE (this is the common under-front adjustment too, Carroll, Kiffin, etc). Same for the 2nd, either the Nickel on the TE or (more likely) match the safety on him (its an easy high-hat/low hat read, same as quarters) even though that safety isn't on the LOS. Of course, this is all in nickel type situations anyway, when it isn't as necessary to have a force player lined-up in a strong position.

As for the decline in cov 1, idk. Major college football is seeing a shift away from quarters into more "catch" man techniques with cov 1 principles (Pellini and Saban just to name a couple), but in college its a completely different animal, so we'll just have to wait and see. BTW, I've spent some time with an Ivy League coach and they play cov. 1 to those 11 personnel examples the same way you showed it, so I guess there is a bunch of ways to skin a cat.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

In the first example, I would never displace the 5 technique LB, instead I would spin the safety down to take care of the slot, either pre or post-snap and let the other safety play free and have the 9 lock up on the TE (this is the common under-front adjustment too, Carroll, Kiffin, etc). Same for the 2nd, either the Nickel on the TE or (more likely) match the safety on him (its an easy high-hat/low hat read, same as quarters) even though that safety isn't on the LOS. Of course, this is all in nickel type situations anyway, when it isn't as necessary to have a force player lined-up in a strong position.

The under-front D is a bit far beyond anything the Madden engine can handle. Sprinng a safety based on flow, fitting outside and forcing every play to the backside runner....is probably a couple (dozen) cycles away.

I'm just picturing some 15 year old throwing his controller through the window because he keeps breaking the wall and giving up TD's.

Not that you aren't right. I was working it more more along the lines of how the current engine already handles things.

Quote:

As for the decline in cov 1, idk. Major college football is seeing a shift away from quarters into more "catch" man techniques with cov 1 principles (Pellini and Saban just to name a couple), but in college its a completely different animal, so we'll just have to wait and see. BTW, I've spent some time with an Ivy League coach and they play cov. 1 to those 11 personnel examples the same way you showed it, so I guess there is a bunch of ways to skin a cat.

I know Pellini is a big pattern-matching guy, I thought he was Cover 4...but I don't catch many Nebraska games. I know in my little corner (Big Ten + MAC) it's heavily 1/4, 1/4, 1/2 still.

[Palo20]

To Sven and Shttymcgee, what are your thoughts on how the game handles twin formations with man coverage? I feel like the AI uses the CB as the force player all the time and when there is no CB on that side, the AI rarely adjusts.

I wrote about this in this thread:

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/madden-nfl-football/455829-madden-motion-sim.html

About the I Form Normal formation:

"A common Madden strategy over the past 10 years or so is to motion the WR from the right to the left to help determine if the defense is in man or zone, and if the defense is in man, the CB on that side will obviously follow. This is important in Madden because not having a CB to the play side kind of “breaks” the run defense. The OLB or SS rarely makes the adjustment to have contain on that side, and it’s often an opening for a big run. This is not an uncommon strategy in the real NFL, but in video game life, the CPU (or human for that matter) is rarely able to make the proper adjustments.

If the defense is in zone, another common move would be to audible back to the original play and keep the WR on his original side. It’s bad Madden strategy to motion the WR opposite playside unless he’s taking the CB with him.


Here’s why it’s not really sim: the motion that occurs on an NFL play is pre-determined, not a last minute adjustment at the line. Every now and then the QB will have a bad play call and maybe motion a TE to the backfield to help with blitz pick up, but for the most part, the motion is called in the huddle."

[Rocky]

Great post, but I don't know if this is Madden's biggest problem.

Until the physics/animations are updated, Madden's always going to have problems with defense.

[CreatineKasey]

Even the collision detection could be worked on. Pro-Tak should be continually updated to be more and more sensitive to contact. That's something I've always respected from 2k football games. They really recognize and detect contact around the player without stringing out animations too much. Every animation seemed to have a point where another defender or two could come in and finish the play. Madden would benefit from that aesthetically so much.

I still feel like this game is kind of messy inside when broken tackle animations happen and the swarm of angry bees (or defenders) buzz around the player but can't bring him down due to the long animation.

[rooney8]

They spent time with Mike Heimerdinger to get the blocking right. Maybe for 12 a defensive coordinator would be good to get the details Sven is talking about into the game.