Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

[lasthour]

These are the type of post I really really would like to see more of. If Madden wants defensive input from OS this would be the franchise changing. I hope this is one issue that gets addressed and I personally hope that manually moving players around to take advantage of AI players, handicaps the defense in order to achieve better playcalling strategy.

Now if we can get a new engine that would be the cherry on top.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

While the actual "assignment" part of the blocking may be right (most NFL teams that run true zone, not pin and pull use covered-uncovered with a counting method), its implementation is bad. There is not nearly enough lateral movement occuring, especially after contact. Not to mention that there is no difference between inside and outside zone runs in the game other than aiming point.

Gotcha. Yea, the movement on the line could use some work. They also need to add the cutblock on the backside which will help create the flow. But that is starting to get into nitpicking. You can run a solid zone game if you want one.

Quote:

Cutback is not okay. For example who should have cutback in a quarters defense? The backside safety. That never happens, and its not just in quarters defenses. While scrape responsibilities may appear okay, I don't really think that they are, everyone just tries to take an outside angle to the ball carrier.

I was talking strictly about the LB play. I also said DB play in the run was brutal. So the backside safety and corner never being in position falls under that umbrella.

The LB's scrape over the top on the run. They even run through windows sometimes. Is it perfect? No, but it really is pretty good. They don't always fill right. They definately struggle against a pitch sweep (PSOLB in particular), but if you run stretch to the right, you get some solid LB play. If you run power left, the MLB does a solid job of going over the top.

[adembroski]

^^^ The reason I love Sven's posts. He knows as much about the game as anyone on here (he and Lbz are probably pretty close, but the two of them blow everyone else away) and he is willing to point out what Madden does right. Makes for far more productive posts.

[Gordy748]

De fence...

By and large, I'm happy with the defense playbooks. But what they need are option plays, i.e. where the offense has a HB option play, so should the Steelers to allow Polamalu to choose whether to blitz, deep zone, whatever. Note this is for the AI, not the player.

The next thing is blitzing. In NFL 11 it's obvious when the house is coming, and equally easy to short pass for a TD. The A.I. needs to be able to show-blitz, or press, or stand off, or do things that make you a little unsure what it is they're doing. As it is, the opposing Def Coordinator might as well be texting you their next play.

The third thing is learning from mistakes. If I'm constantly passing to an unmarked slot WR, then the AI should start marking him. Currently it does it, but not that well.

I find the alignment problem a real issue, too. Too often I find my defense leaving 2 WRs totally free and have to audible into man-align just to get somebody marking them.

[CreatineKasey]

Until they have different blocking logic available, stunts and twists won't matter unfortunately. It'd be cool to see several blocking "philosophies" available.. maybe unlockable according to your AWR level or something. Another cool philosophy would be alignments on D... does your D switch for strong-sides? Does it freeze and shift irregardless?

Alignment is a big problem in Madden, along with pursuit and responsibilities of DB's (like Sven mentioned). Speed is king because of pursuit. Good pursuit would go a long way. I still think defenses don't have enough explosiveness coming out of a neutral stance. Momentum is nice, but it doesn't mean they can't accelerate a bit faster.

The fact that interactions can't be lengthened leaves for a rigid game. You still can't drive blockers around. I thought pro-tak would allow for that. Defenders need to be able to continually interact with blockers in more of a free-flowing way. It'd help the interior game.

Double team pass blocking needs to be in the game, and the pass rush should be amped up to complement the change. Great pass rushers should be respected and accounted for.

There should be a way with strafe to get bigger and be more agile side to side. In football, you'd generally "get big" and strafe to make an open field tackle shuffling either way a ballcarrier cuts. I don't feel this is represented well in Madden, and it makes for open field tackling to be a bigger struggle than it should be.

I don't believe they have 2-gap scheme logic in the game yet either. DL in a 3-4 would engage and flow sideline to sideline with a run in a 2 gap scheme.. occupying their linemen as the play develops. Until they get longer animations in the game, it just can't happen.

Increasing the variability in pass blocking schemes and overall results would really open the game up. Right now, there isn't enough advantage in using confusion on defense to ruin pass blocking schemes. Twists, stunts, and delays just don't hold their weight in Madden like they do in real life. Overloads are more easily identified IRL. Also, something like blitzing a safety doesn't seem to hold the same merit in Madden because of the logic. In real life I think it works because it's just not expected or common. In Madden, all blitzers look the same and are treated the same, simplifying the game in the wrong way.

Good post, Sven. I remember your pass blocking posts from last year.

[havokeff]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

I must not have made this clear. I'm referring to the Computer's defense against a human. As a human I can get into the look I want without a ton of difficulty, but I can't stop the computer from misaligning itself.

Yup. Wasn't clear on that. That certainly makes a difference.

[rooney8]

Great post Sven.
Now pretend you're Ian and try and sell Alignment, Assignment, Continuity to marketing. So basically how will this make the game more fun and appeal to the masses and thus sell more copies?

[Sven Draconian]

Assignment-Part 1- Pursuit Angles

There's some sort of weird misconception about pursuit angles. It's almost become a mythical creature about how touchy and difficult they are. The best pursuit angles are simple: Everybody runs directly at the nearest hip of the ball carrier.

Phew. That ws tough.

Ok, nobody believes me....so here it goes.

Force Player

There is NO good pursuit angle for a player running free up the sideline. Once a ball carrier goes free up the sidleine, the defense is in big trouble. Everything pursuit wise is predicated on not letting that happen.

Somebody on defense has to be the force player (maybe better understood as the contain player). His job is FORCE a sidelines bount ball-carrier to drastically change directions. When I teach this, I teach them that you make the ball carrier stick his foot in the ground and make a true cut. He has to change his speed.

This is a tricky job. If the force player is too aggressive, he can get blocked into the backfield and let the ball carrier just make a quick cut inside of him. If he's too soft, he'll get hooked by a blocker.

.............................................."L"
WR.............T..G..C..G..T..TE.................. ...
.........................Q........................ ........WR
....................H.........F

In this scenario, "L" is the force-player. If he runs into the backfield, all "F" has to do is box-him-out like a basketball player, and H just runs inside of him.

If "L" stays where he is, then "F" just needs to make contact and "H" will be able to beat him to the sideline.

"L" needs to attack TO the line of scrimmage, without going past the line of scrimmage. He keeps his outside arm free, incase "H" tries to run outside anyway.

This is just one example, the force player can come from a lot of different places on the field. It can be a safety or a corner as well. So how do you determine who it is? It's based on the coverage.


WR...................T..G..C..G..T................ .WR
..........SL.................Q.............SL..... ........
...............................H

The "force" player is the player responsible if "SL" runs a 5 yard out.

If it's Cover 2, it's the corner. He runs a 5 yard out, into the corner p laying flats.

If it's Cover 3, it's whoever is responsble for the Curl/Flat zone. This can be a corner (Called "Cloud") a Safety ("Sky) or a backer ("Buzz").

If it's man or cover 1- It's the player guarding that receiver.

If it's Cover 4 (aka Quarters) it's the safety, but Madden doesn't have this coverage properly, so we'll ignore it for now.

Secondary Force

If a job is so crucial as a force player (remember, keeping the ball contained is life and death for a defense) and it's difficult. You can't just have one guy responsible.

The secondary force player corrects the force player. If the force player turns the ball inside, he "Runs the Alley" and helps on the tackle. If the force player scews up, than the secondary force player becomes the force player and keeps everything inside.

The secondary force player is the player responsible for a deep zone. If it's cover 2, it's a safety. If it's cover 3, it's whomever is covering that deep 3rd.

If it's man or cover 1 it's the corner playing man on the wideout. However, he may not be looking for the. That's why those coverages aren't as good against the run.

Now that the Force is with you....

Couldn't help the star wars joke...I apoligize.

Lets put the rest of the defense on the field....

C........................F........................ .....C
..............L.......L........L...........$
...............E......N.....T.......E
WR............T..G..C..G..T..TE
........................Q......................... .....WR
.....................H.......F

It's Cover 3 with the safety rolled down "Sky". It's the vaunted "8-in-the-box" you'll hear announcers jabber about.

It's a pitch sweep to the right. The TE is going to try and block the end. The WR is going to go stalk the corner. The Right tackle is going to pull to the right and look to pickup the playside linebacker (L). The guard blocks the defensive tackle.

The fullback needs to block the safety. The "safety" could cover the 5-yard out by the TE...so he's the force player. He needs to keep the play inside.

If the safety keeps the play inside, and forces the ball to cut, look at how much help he has. All 3 linebackers are coming from the inside (They scrape over the top of the OL's blocks, looking for an opening to attack the ball carrier's nearest hip). The Free Safety is coming from the inside. They all attack the ball carriers hip full speed. If the ball carrier tries to stop and cutback, he's going to get crushed.

Lets look at what could happen if the defense takes an "angle". (like they do in Madden).

C........................F(5)..................... ........C
.............L(4)......L(3)....L (2)........$ (1)
...............E......N.....T.......E
WR............T..G..C..G..T..TE
........................Q......................... .....WR
.....................H.......F


1- If he does anything but force on the run (trying to turn the play back as quickly as possible) it creates a lot of space. Often in Madden this player drops into coverage, creating space and allowing cheap yardage.

2- This player normally plays it pretty well in Madden. He scrapes (strafe in madden speak) past the TE, and attacks directly at the ball-carrier.

2 should get blocked. The tackle or guard (whomever pulls) should get a piece of him. Obviously 1 is going to get blocked by the FB. Here is where the problem starts....

3- Often this player will take an angle straight to the sideline, trying to cutoff the RB.

4- This player usually ends up running towards the corner of the endzone, trying to cutoff the back.

5- Normally he'll drop into coverage (that's o.k.) and then try and cutoff the back.

So the play looks something like this....

...........................l(4)................... .f(5)..............
C..................................L(3)........... .................wr/C
........................................T/L (2)....F/S (1)
...............E......N.....T....E
WR............T..G..C..G....TE..........h
........................Q......................... ..........................


There are two things to note:
1) Look at that cutback lane. As a user, all you need to do is keep drifting just a little right. Use the spin move, and cut back behind the tackles block. The two linebackers that should be playing the hip of the ball carrier are running downfiled.

2) Usually either the tackle or fullback miss the block, so either you get tackled or you break the tackle. If you break the tackle (be it a juke, spin or whatever) your player slows down...letting the defense overpusue...and then you have a nice cutback.

Whereas if the defense is taking a proper angle, with everybody attacking the near hip (force player attacking the near hip to turn it in, everyone else attacking near hip fromt he inside) you trap the ball between them, and one missed tackle doesn't mean a lot, because there are 3 other defenders right there.

When you hear announcers talk about a defense playing fast, this is what they mean. They identify the play and take the proper angle. The force player see's it's a run and closes it down. The free safety see's run and flies into the alley. The playside backer see's run, scrapes, and attacks the ball. The two backside backers scrape and attack the hip, taking care of the cutback. If the free safety misses the tackle, the othe linebackers are right there to gang-tackle.