Finding balance using sliders

[thebizarrojerry]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sturzinator

I just want to see some fumbles, period. I like to keep it even for both CPU and HUM ( I don't use the strip function when tackling) and hope that the fumbles occur randomly, based on ball carrying ability. I am averse to going 40/60 or 60/40 on the fumble slider. I would be more inclined to try 25/25 on that area and see if anything goes wonky, keeping my tackle slider at 12. I will try a few more games at 50/50 before changing anything. I am not as concerned about broken tackles as I am the "Blow 'em up" tackles you get with a high tackle slider. Are you seeing an occasional big play with the 70 threshold? This is another thing I will be watching for as a experiment further. Game play is tight at 70, but so far no big plays. I don't want to see them all the time, but they should be there occasionally. I may consider dropping the threshold to 60 or 65 and see what happens after some more testing. As always, your thoughts are appreciated.

I see a lot of fumbles, especially hard sacks on the unassuming QB. ALso once in a while on a punt return or run.

Hum/CPU fumble slider is

1/0

[hanzsomehanz]

Critical Analysis

I feel the Gameplay does not respect the rule of balance. The All-Pro slider set is set for 50/50 and yet we have strayed from that system of mirroring. In retrospect, after playing this game, it appears the sliders appear to be lukewarm. They have some elements of All-Madden and some of All-Pro.

No Handicaps

When I finished applying the sliders the game difficulty reflected ‘customized’. In the game, it felt like the CPU had a handicap advantage and that was not a balanced feeling - I don’t want to face a handicap.

Mercy Mercy Mercy

The were two instances where I hit Griffin just as he released and twice my players got injured ?-;-? One would have resulted in a safety, the other resulted in my player suffering an abdominal tear that would keep him out two weeks. It seemed he had a shield of protection that could not be harmed by our axe or that our axe was just too dull to do any effective damage. There was another sack attempt where we attempted to sack Griffin and my dude literally avoided diving at him and lunged away from him which allowed Griffin to stand statue-esque and throw a long completion. This was all credit to the CPU Pass Blocking game.

The CPU also had impeccable blocking but again in the second half our axe seemed to sharpen up and we were able to cut through. Still, there were recurring instances where I would click on and my defender would make an effort to avoid making the tackle or sack by evading – there would even be instances where my ability to click on a defender (switch) would be delayed.

Please, no gimmicks!

These little gimmicks made the game experience feel cheap like I was literally playing against a handicap. I have a handicap client in my field of work and we play video games and when we play, he has no intention of any handicap advantage – he handles his own.

Applying 100

I appreciate the 100 total philosophy but it is evident that we have strayed from the original thesis by abandoning the mirroring effect of All-Pro. If we want to keep All-Pro justified we should keep that balance in respect. If the All-Pro setting is too easy, then users should go to All-Madden and use your theory but adjust the preset sliders. IT will still result in a customized game but I feel it will result in less mercy killing.


Conclusion

I can't continue with these presets but I will keep the balance in effect. The game speed and threshold were acceptable - I actually felt surprised by how manageable the game-speed was.

Going Forward

The changes I pursue will primarily effect the efficacy of the sliders and animations - I don’t want to be neutered just to appease the opponent’s lack of skill. The whole game I felt I was going into battle with a dull axe while they had this superior set of shield and armor. In the aftermath, they played above their ratings and still lost a one-sided battle.

Work in Progress

Their is still work to be done in achieving simulation results without enforcing a mercy preset on either side. I see the blueprint with better understanding now that I see how the game plays under these settings. I will have some questions tomorrow regarding why we are setting certain sliders on their designated values.

[akita7334]

Quote: Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz

Critical Analysis I feel the Gameplay does not respect the rule of balance. The All-Pro slider set is set for 50/50 and yet we have strayed from that system of mirroring. In retrospect, after playing this game, it appears the sliders appear to be lukewarm. They have some elements of All-Madden and some of All-Pro. No Handicaps When I finished applying the sliders the game difficulty reflected ‘customized’. In the game, it felt like the CPU had a handicap advantage and that was not a balanced feeling - I don’t want to face a handicap. Mercy Mercy Mercy The were two instances where I hit Griffin just as he released and twice my players got injured ?-;-? One would have resulted in a safety, the other resulted in my player suffering an abdominal tear that would keep him out two weeks. It seemed he had a shield of protection that could not be harmed by our axe or that our axe was just too dull to do any effective damage. There was another sack attempt where we attempted to sack Griffin and my dude literally avoided diving at him and lunged away from him which allowed Griffin to stand statue-esque and throw a long completion. This was all credit to the CPU Pass Blocking game. The CPU also had impeccable blocking but again in the second half our axe seemed to sharpen up and we were able to cut through. Still, there were recurring instances where I would click on and my defender would make an effort to avoid making the tackle or sack by evading – there would even be instances where my ability to click on a defender (switch) would be delayed. Please, no gimmicks! These little gimmicks made the game experience feel cheap like I was literally playing against a handicap. I have a handicap client in my field of work and we play video games and when we play, he has no intention of any handicap advantage – he handles his own. Applying 100 I appreciate the 100 total philosophy but it is evident that we have strayed from the original thesis by abandoning the mirroring effect of All-Pro. If we want to keep All-Pro justified we should keep that balance in respect. If the All-Pro setting is too easy, then users should go to All-Madden and use your theory but adjust the preset sliders. IT will still result in a customized game but I feel it will result in less mercy killing. Conclusion I can't continue with these presets but I will keep the balance in effect. The game speed and threshold were acceptable - I actually felt surprised by how manageable the game-speed was. Going Forward The changes I pursue will primarily effect the efficacy of the sliders and animations - I don’t want to be neutered just to appease the opponent’s lack of skill. The whole game I felt I was going into battle with a dull axe while they had this superior set of shield and armor. In the aftermath, they played above their ratings and still lost a one-sided battle. Work in Progress Their is still work to be done in achieving simulation results without enforcing a mercy preset on either side. I see the blueprint with better understanding now that I see how the game plays under these settings. I will have some questions tomorrow regarding why we are setting certain sliders on their designated values.

This set is what I want out of the game. It's a simple system, adjust the sliders how you want to remembering the rules and keeping within the parameters.

[NoleFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz

Applying 100 I appreciate the 100 total philosophy but it is evident that we have strayed from the original thesis by abandoning the mirroring effect of All-Pro. If we want to keep All-Pro justified we should keep that balance in respect. If the All-Pro setting is too easy, then users should go to All-Madden and use your theory but adjust the preset sliders. IT will still result in a customized game but I feel it will result in less mercy killing.

You can still have All-Pro and use the balance method. Just make sure that the sum of all 3 sliders (qba, pb, wrc for ex) in a category equals 150 for player skill. Then, offset the corresponding CPU sliders in the CPU skill sliders while also maintaining that 150 total of the 3 sliders in a category. Work perfectly for me on 12.

So, the sum of the 3 sliders within pass offense should equal 150, rush offense should equal 150 and etc for player skill. And just for balance sake I do the same for cpu skill.

Ex.

player skill rush offense

Break tackles 53
run block 53
fumbles 44

Sum = 150

CPU skill run defense

run react 56
break block 47
tackle 47

sum = 150

See above the total of tackle to break tackles is still 100 and my run offense category is at 150 (all-pro).

[hanzsomehanz]

I feel you have already lost the middle way with your sliders, Akita, and should mention some of the points I made in my post so as to not waste a user's time.

The sliders are impacted by more than just a two way relationship.

QB versus PD Reac versus Catch versus Tackle
The CPU WR's are not dropping contact balls. There is almost no struggle shown in their animations. When catching a ball in traffic, they are immediately shielded to continue a running move because that 70catch plus 70QBA is way too overpowering in contrast to a 45 HUM tackle.

Hoodwinked
You should mention this, among other exploits, in your original post, that we will see on your preset Gameplay. If I tune my Sound profile preset to Dancehall, I know what I will get versus Live. In the same way, let us know what song we'll be dancing to with your sliders.

Let us know why you are using the numbers you do, esp on that extreme side of 70QBA,PB,Catch? Why are you giving the Defense brick hands regardless of their ratings? I can't see why this is justified till I hear your case man.

Difficulty
I reset my difficulty to All-Madden and discovered the following. HUM skill was reset to 25 but CPU skill remained where you have them set. I then reset the difficulty to All-Pro and discovered the following. HUM skill was reset to 50 but CPU skill remained where you have them set.

What do you gather? What does the community gather from this regarding how difficulty standards work? Also, there is no total of 100 on All-Madden - the total is 25/50 HUM CPU (I reset the CPU skill to default and discovered this).

All-Pro is the only difficulty that gives you a 50/50 balance equaling to 100. Rookie is 100/50 (150); Pro is 75/50 (125); All-Madden is 25/50 (75) On all of the difficulty presets, only HUM changes - CPU remains at 50.

What does the community gather from this? Lets look at what balance truly is, too.. if there were a 25/75 preset, like you suggested, then we still cannot use the word balanced because 25 on one side does not offset 75 on the other side - The game is simply increasing slider ability on one side. It may not have always been this way but it is evidently here today.

Sorry to burst your bubble

I'm sure this comes as a surprise to you but the 100 philosophy you proposed is not in effect in the game. This is why I feel hoodwinked. Everything you proposed is off-scale - even your own sliders are not revealing balance. I would rather have a 50/50 chance using the default sliders for All-Pro than scarcely see fumbles and INT's - you've almost overtly omitted them from the game - how is that an improvement?

Success and Failure go Hand in Hand

Touchdowns must be balanced with turnovers. If you go to 70 on offense why are you not explaining the cause and effect of these extremities? This is why I mentioned weighted averages.

For example, the weight of a 50 INT is not as significant as a weight of 50 Catch because offense has a higher threshold for their side than the defense does for their side. In this example, you've made the disparity even greater which is what you talk against regarding speed.

What to see going forward
We have got to see that same disparity talk come out in your slider decision making because these are some wide turns you are making on some sets and not leaving much to any boundary for recovery on the other side.

It will be worthwhile for us to get a more accurate reading on the difficulty and how to weigh the slider values. In the example above, it would be more effective to lower catch since tackle was lowered and maybe even lower INT's but you will not see this perspective because you are rigid on the 100 outcome - it is false advertising - the only 100 outcome we see by presets is on All-Pro and that level is still very easy.

Can we confess that the slider makeup is already faulty? If we used your sliders out the box, the gaming community would think there is a glitch and would want to tweak the sliders as well. The developers do the best they can but they're doing better than we can that's why they are hired.

50/50 All-Pro is the Online Standard for any game because in the limited time we have, that standard allows us to see enough variety in the game to make it competitive and fun - no, it will not be SIM because we will not be playing 15 minute QTR's online. These are sprints - a little time out from the day to pickup the sticks and shoot the hoops or throw touchdowns.

[hanzsomehanz]

Quote: Originally Posted by NoleFan

You can still have All-Pro and use the balance method. Just make sure that the sum of all 3 sliders (qba, pb, wrc for ex) in a catgory equals 150 for player skill. Then, offset the corresponding cpu sliders in the cpu skill sliders while also maintaining that 150 total of the 3 sliders in a category. Work perfectly for me on 12. So, the sum of the 3 sliders within pass offense should equal 150, rush offense should equal 150 and etc for player skill. And just for balance sake I do the same for cpu skill. Ex. player skill rush offense Break tackles 53 run block 53 fumbles 44 Sum = 150 cpu skill run defense run react 56 break block 47 tackle 47 sum = 150 See above the total of tackle to break tackles is still 100 and my run offense category is at 150 (all-pro).

I appreciate that info, Nole. I am going to further the relationship to being interdependent two ways, interconnecting with offense versus defense and also difficulty just as you offered in the example.

This clarifies what I was thinking within myself - there is more than a linear relationship going on here. The one scale (50/50 = 100) is interdependent of the other scale (50x3 = 150) - this is the All-Pro slider scheme.

An equation can be given as a rule to use for each of these sub divisions in offense and defense that consist of 3 sliders. I don't know what the equation would look like in terms of variables so I will only suggest it is there.

[NoleFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz

I appreciate that info, Nole. I am going to further the relationship to being interdependent two ways, interconnecting with offense versus defense and also difficulty just as you offered in the example. This clarifies what I was thinking within myself - there is more than a linear relationship going on here. The one scale (50/50 = 100) is interdependent of the other scale (50x3 = 150) - this is the All-Pro slider scheme. An equation can be given as a rule to use for each of these sub divisions in offense and defense that consist of 3 sliders. I don't know what the equation would look like in terms of variables so I will only suggest it is there.

You're quite welcome hh! I hope you find it useful!

[hanzsomehanz]

Hi Nole,

I went 1 up and 1 down on the user side and then checked game difficulty and it changed to custom. It also did this when I mirrored the results for CPU. Since custom seems to appear once we change a single value in difficulty, I think it is safe to consider that you will get a certain experience providing you stay within the range.

Example, Between All-Pro and All-Madden the sectional difference is 75 - 150 for All-Pro and 75 for All-Madden.

Slider Ranges

Based on these results, I gather we have a wide boundary so long as the total value doesn't enter the beginning range of another difficulty.

Example, if I want an All-Pro experience, I should not go higher than a 224 total because 225 is Pro and I should not go lower than 76 because 75 is Madden.

Fair assessment?

It doesn't seem to errk me now to stay at 100 knowing I can have a different total - this Is the freedom I originally wanted. The game itself is only changing the overall difficulty by 25points in each ability. It truly is up to our discretion to determine what experience we want.

I sent you a P.M too, Nole, so you wouldn't miss the response.