Will Madden 10 Support Route Based Passing / Timed Passing Patterns

[NYyankz225]

Not to sound like an Ian rider just because he's been active here, but I really think this is another example of selective or nostalgic recollection of the 2k series. 2k clearly did a lot right with the series... but I just feel like because of the exclusivity issue that ended it prematurely, people elevate the game to a level it never actually reached. The game had its fair share of faults that seem to go out the wayside when people talk about it. It must be frustrating as a developer to be compared to something like that. Sort of like how my man Arod will always be compared to a God-like Favre that never really existed. Although I think the sour way things ended last year w him may make people more open minded .

Regardless, I do agree with the original point of this thread. Madden SHOULD have more timing based routes, and I agree that 2k did it better, but it sacrificed user control which I feel is a big no-no. When a player starts to make a cut I want to be able to put the ball at the end of his route where I expect him to go. Hopefully that can be improved without taking 2k's approach.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by NYyankz225

I don't understand...based on your second video the receivers in 2k8 had the same psychic ability to tell when the ball was going to be thrown as in Madden. The TE examples he turned around completely without finishing his route at all and without seeing that the ball was thrown. How did he know the ball was going to be thrown? How is that any different than Madden?

You just proved our point with that statement.

In the APF2K8 video, the QB threw it so early, that the TE had to make a fantastic adjustment on the ball. Most of the time, this is not a catch. If the ball was thrown at the end of the drop, as it should have been, then it is a fairly easy completion.

In Madden (and I just played it to confirm this), the QB, at any point, can throw a super accurate ball and the WR barely has to make any adjustment at all to catch it. There is no timing to the route and in fact, it's better if you don't time it and rocket catch the whole game.

[NYyankz225]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

You just proved our point with that statement. In the APF2K8 video, the QB threw it so early, that the TE had to make a fantastic adjustment on the ball. Most of the time, this is not a catch. If the ball was thrown at the end of the drop, as it should have been, then it is a fairly easy completion.

Again, this is selective perception. In the TE out section I don't see a "fantastic adjustment," I see a TE with eyes in the back of his head that stopped on a dime, did a complete 180 and caught the ball when he had no reason to expect that the ball would be thrown. If it was truly route based passing he would not have turned around at all because he was not aware of the ball (don't tell me he could have seen that one) and that wasn't the route that he was supposed to run.

I'm not arguing that it isn't better in 2k than in Madden, but that right there is an example of the same sort of thing you see in Madden that you folks complain about.

Edit: I'm talking about the second TE out, at 42 seconds.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by NYyankz225

I don't understand...based on your second video the receivers in 2k8 had the same psychic ability to tell when the ball was going to be thrown as in Madden. The TE examples he turned around completely without finishing his route at all and without seeing that the ball was thrown. How did he know the ball was going to be thrown? How is that any different than Madden?

Quote: Originally Posted by NYyankz225

Again, this is selective perception. In the TE out section I don't see a "fantastic adjustment," I see a TE with eyes in the back of his head that stopped on a dime, did a complete 180 and caught the ball when he had no reason to expect that the ball would be thrown. If it was truly route based passing he would not have turned around at all because he was not aware of the ball (don't tell me he could have seen that one) and that wasn't the route that he was supposed to run. I'm not arguing that it isn't better in 2k than in Madden, but that right there is an example of the same sort of thing you see in Madden that you folks complain about.

It's not selective perception. I mean, it's just something that is relatively right in the 2K series and completely wrong in the Madden series. And when you consider that:

1) The TE was almost at the top of his break when he made the adjustment to the ball

2) 98.2% of the time, that ball is never completed with a defense because you couldn't nearly make that adjustment in time.

3) It is not a good throw or catch or play. The ball is supposed to hit the receiver in stride so he can run after the catch. In the video, he makes the adjustment, barely catches it, and doesn't put himself in position to get YAC.

Is there the eyes in the back of the head thing...yes. That will always be there as long as there is icon passing. That's not the point anybody was trying to make. The point is most of the time QB throws an inaccurate ball and the receiver has to make a good adjustment to even catch it if you do throw it early.

[NYyankz225]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

It's not selective perception. I mean, it's just something that is relatively right in the 2K series and completely wrong in the Madden series. And when you consider that: 1) The TE was almost at the top of his break when he made the adjustment to the ball 2) 98.2% of the time, that ball is never completed with a defense because you couldn't nearly make that adjustment in time. 3) It is not a good throw or catch or play. The ball is supposed to hit the receiver in stride so he can run after the catch. In the video, he makes the adjustment, barely catches it, and doesn't put himself in position to get YAC. Is there the eyes in the back of the head thing...yes. That will always be there as long as there is icon passing. That's not the point anybody was trying to make. The point is most of the time QB throws an inaccurate ball and the receiver has to make a good adjustment to even catch it if you do throw it early.

Again, how is that any different than in Madden? If you throw to a receiver in Madden before he makes his cut he will turn around and catch the ball. He will not be in stride and if it's man coverage you will be tackled immediately with no YAC 90% of the time.

The only difference, to me, is during the cut itself. Once he starts his cut, the QB will throw to where he should be when he completes the cut. This is definitely more realistic but not to the level that it's made out to be.

I guess like you said I'm missing the original point that people are trying to make but that last video makes it pretty clear that the passing logic in 2k is not as vastly superior as people make it out to be. I thought the point being made was that in 2k's system they CANNOT unrealistically turn around early when they should be running a different route, and that the the passing is based on the route being run (aka timing based), not the the WR's location. Valdarez's second video disproves that notion. It IS based on the WR's position EXCEPT for during the actual cut where it will throw to the location he should be at the end of it, which is what I've already admitted is a somewhat superior system.

[crackdownjr]

Quote: Originally Posted by NYyankz225

I don't understand...based on your second video the receivers in 2k8 had the same psychic ability to tell when the ball was going to be thrown as in Madden. The TE examples he turned around completely without finishing his route at all and without seeing that the ball was thrown. How did he know the ball was going to be thrown? How is that any different than Madden?

the fact that you do not understand is based on your own inability... on every one of those early throws, the receiver is making the cut & turning their heads to the QB... so on the pass to the TE, he had turned his head as he made his break & happened to see that the QB threw the ball early, it cannot be labeled as "psychic ability". You should watch the vid more closely before posting, it took me a few seconds to see this.

Not to say that Madden should make it exactly like this, there is room for improvement... but this is definitely more realistic than Madden 06-09 current gen, i do not remember how it was last gen

[NYyankz225]

I see it in the first TE out pattern, but not the second. He is not looking back at the QB at 42 seconds.

[Sven Draconian]

With a defense on the field, those are sacks (often). The pocket dynamics mean that a DT is going to hit you on that throw more often then not. I've tried it with some of the quick passing and hot routes.

If you throw it while backpedling you get the floater ball effect, or that horrific animation where your QB turns around and lunges off his back foot.