Excellent Shot Release... Uh Oh..

[SPRINGS03]

Quote: Originally Posted by El_Poopador

but thats not how it works irl. let me put it this way. i shoot around at lunch every day. there are times where my shot feels absolutely perfect but it doesnt go in. i dont just say well that was bad luck that i missed even though it felt good. when i see how it misses i am able to see that it was not actually perfect and adjust my next shot so i dont make that same mistake. even though the original shot felt perfect it wasnt and i was able to adjust accordingly. thats what im getting at. obviously there is no possible way to truly emulate real shooting mechanics in a video game. but the way it is now its 100% a dice roll.

Yes, it is.

Dude, i used to play basketball too. You can adjust your shot, sure. But there are times when no matter how perfect your form is, the ball just won't go in. Like for example you said you see how it misses and adjust right? Sure, that's true, you can do that to an extent. But what about when the ball bottoms out? Or goes in and out of the rim? Often times shots like those are the ones where you'll say, "ah that was right, just not that time, need to shoot it like that again" You can't 100% control the physics of the ball going in the rim no matter how "perfect" your form is.

The way it works now isn't a 100% dice roll, that would mean that every open shot is just random no matter what. But considering that you can raise the probability, it's not. There is some chance(just like in real life) but it's hardly 100% chance. Go back to my example. I guarantee if you took 50 shots using early/late releases vs 50 with perfect release, you would definitely make more with perfect release. That's how it should be. That's how basketball is, nobody has 100% control of their shot going in no matter how perfect their form is or how well they shoot. I don't think some of you guys get this.

[birthday_massacre]

Quote: Originally Posted by quehouston

Let me ask you this question: While watching NBA game on TV, you see Ray Allen miss a wide open corner 3. I mean WIDE OPEN. Every thing looks perfect, but the ball rolls in and out. How can you judge if his mechanics were off, since there isn't anything popping up on screen showing the release and shot quality? I'm just not sold on the idea that players are always gonna hit perfect shots. There are just too many things to factor in. You could even go as far as to say that the air just wasn't right, or his mechanics were perfect, but he blinked a millisecond before he shot. Seriously, some times the ball just doesn't go in.

Just because I think it looks perfect, doesn't mean it was perfect. I am not sure why you don't get that. If the shot was perfect then it would go in.

And this is a video game, even if I wanted to concede you can miss a perfect shot which I am not, if you get a perfect rating for a shot in a game you should not miss, what is the point of giving you an A+ if its going to miss? Just give you an A- or B+ and make it miss. Then we wouldn't have a problem.

All I am saying is, If i see an A+ perfect shot, it shouldn't be missing. Just make it harder to get that rating or just don't give out that rating if the shot is going to miss.

[quehouston]

Quote: Originally Posted by birthday_massacre

Just because I think it looks perfect, doesn't mean it was perfect. I am not sure why you don't get that. If the shot was perfect then it would go in. And this is a video game, even if I wanted to concede you can miss a perfect shot which I am not, if you get a perfect rating for a shot in a game you should not miss, what is the point of giving you an A+ if its going to miss? Just give you an A- or B+ and make it miss. Then we wouldn't have a problem. All I am saying is, If i see an A+ perfect shot, it shouldn't be missing. Just make it harder to get that rating or just don't give out that rating if the shot is going to miss.

Lol this is ridiculous man. We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Any real life shooter will tell you that some shots just don't go in. The in and out shots are a perfect example. Maybe one shot hits the back of the rim and goes in, but the next shot hits the back of the rim, but because of the way it was rotating one of the grooves caught the rim weirdly and bounced in an out. This kind of stuff does happen.

And if you still believe that every Perfect release A+ quality shot should go in, more power to you lol. This game is just not perfect enough defensively to warrant that. If I wanted all my perfect shots to go in, I'd go play NBA Jam. And if A+ shots missing were bothering me that much, I'd just turn off the Shot Feedback. I probably wouldn't even noticed when perfect shots miss then.

[SPRINGS03]

Quote: Originally Posted by birthday_massacre

Just because I think it looks perfect, doesn't mean it was perfect. I am not sure why you don't get that. If the shot was perfect then it would go in.

Nope. What about the NBA players that have had shots that they say felt perfect and thought was going in but missed? It's not that simple.

Quote: Originally Posted by birthday_massacre

I have said a million times Ray Allen has said this. He has said when ever he misses a shot he knows why he missed and that his mechanics were off. He is the probably the best pure shooter in NBA history. Ill take his word over yours or anyone else's on this board. I even said if you were able to take a machine and take the exact same shot every single time with the perfect mechanics, that shot would go in every single time, It would never miss because everything is perfect. I just think its funny you don't think that is true. If you miss a shot its something YOU did wrong, or it was tipped or blocked. There is no wind in an NBA arena so that can't effect it. If it was outside then yes that could be the case but inside its just not the case.

Your misinterpreting his words and trying to use them for your argument. Let me explain something. I already knew Ray Allen said that, but when he said that he hardly meant that he knows exactly why he misses on every shot. He meant that he can tell exactly why his mechanics or technique is off on a shot that misses and adjust for the next shot, hopefully improving his chances. Hell if you wanna just use the whole nba players argument, take kobe. He's said before that he's had shots that are perfect or feel perfect but just miss at times, and he hates it. Pretty sure he said that on doin work.

Yeah, question, what is this machine that takes perfect shots that go in every time? There is no such thing. So if people aren't able to make a machine that makes every "perfect shot" go in, what makes you think basketball players can do that with their shots? Physics are complicated, there's more to it than that.

I think it's funny that you can't understand one of the most basic things about basketball that countless players have said before. "sometimes they just don't go in" You can do everything right and that doesn't guarantee anything.

But really if i wanted to, i could just say that you're wrong technically because the game says "excellent" release, not perfect. So even by your logic, that's incorrect. Excellent doesn't equal perfect lol.

[quehouston]

Quote: Originally Posted by SPRINGS03

But really if i wanted to, i could just say that you're wrong technically because the game says "excellent" release, not perfect. So even by your logic, that's incorrect. Excellent doesn't equal perfect lol.

[birthday_massacre]

Quote: Originally Posted by quehouston

Lol this is ridiculous man. We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Any real life shooter will tell you that some shots just don't go in. The in and out shots are a perfect example. Maybe one shot hits the back of the rim and goes in, but the next shot hits the back of the rim, but because of the way it was rotating one of the grooves caught the rim weirdly and bounced in an out. This kind of stuff does happen. And if you still believe that every Perfect release A+ quality shot should go in, more power to you lol. This game is just not perfect enough defensively to warrant that. If I wanted all my perfect shots to go in, I'd go play NBA Jam. And if A+ shots missing were bothering me that much, I'd just turn off the Shot Feedback. I probably wouldn't even noticed when perfect shots miss then.

The shots that hit the back of the rim are not perfect shots.
The ones that go right through the center of the net are the perfect ones. The ones that hit the back board are shot too hard thus why they hit he back board or the back of the rim.

Quote: Originally Posted by SPRINGS03

Nope. What about the NBA players that have had shots that they say felt perfect and thought was going in but missed? It's not that simple. Your misinterpreting his words and trying to use them for your argument. Let me explain something. I already knew Ray Allen said that, but when he said that he hardly meant that he knows exactly why he misses on every shot. He meant that he can tell exactly why his mechanics or technique is off on a shot that misses and adjust for the next shot, hopefully improving his chances. Hell if you wanna just use the whole nba players argument, take kobe. He's said before that he's had shots that are perfect or feel perfect but just miss at times, and he hates it. Pretty sure he said that on doin work. Yeah, question, what is this machine that takes perfect shots that go in every time? There is no such thing. So if people aren't able to make a machine that makes every "perfect shot" go in, what makes you think basketball players can do that with their shots? Physics are complicated, there's more to it than that. I think it's funny that you can't understand one of the most basic things about basketball that countless players have said before. "sometimes they just don't go in" You can do everything right and that doesn't guarantee anything. But really if i wanted to, i could just say that you're wrong technically because the game says "excellent" release, not perfect. So even by your logic, that's incorrect. Excellent doesn't equal perfect lol.

Its a video game, and I just said, even if you want to say every perfect shot doesn't go in, this is a video game and they should go in, otherwise there is no point in even using timing based shooting and you should just use real % shooting.

The problem is, if A+ perfect release shot, is more apt to go in in the first or 2nd quarter than it is to go in when the CPU is trying to make a come back and trying to get back in the game, and the reason for that is the CPU nerfs you so you don't hit those A+ shots because the CPU needs to catch up.

If the dice roll if you will was always the same, then I wouldn't have a problem but when there is under a minute in the game and I get three shots in a row that are A A- and A+ and I miss all three, while the CPU hits three shots in a row with two defenders in their faces something is wrong.

There is a huge issue when for 3 quarters I am shooting 50% and missing those A+ shots lets say 1 out of 5 times, then we go to the 4Q and my FG% drops to 35% and then I am only making 1 out of 5 A + or A shots.

That is what I have issue with and what makes me say we should be hitting all the "perfect" shots.

I even said I would make a compromise and say only in the last minute of the game should those A+ shots always go in, but for the rest of the game it can be normal. But you seem to have a problem with that too.

If the computer wouldn't cheat and force you to miss those shots at the end of the game, this wouldn't even be an issue.

And you can claim the baseball analogy is wrong but it still holds true. If a baseball game if you have perfect timing and perfect location, you are always going to make contact with the ball, you will never swing and miss.

[ourpurpose]

This thread has turned into a disaster of nothing more than semantics/interpretation. As a guy who would be defined as a shooter, I can easily say that if I miss a shot... It is a reflection of something that I did wrong. A shot has many variables that are not being acknowledged. The level of shooter you are dealing with will determine the factors they are able to overcome, but make no mistake, any miss from a "shooter" is his/her own mistake.

An Idea of some Factors:

- not touching the ball frequently enough

- running allover the court fighting through traffic and screens in an attempt to get open... then realizing your teammate responsible for getting you the ball completely misses you

- frustration (see above... many factors here)

- expending energy that can affect every aspect of your shot as the game goes on

-mechanics (most obvious... this can be affected by fatigue and lack of preparation)

- external stimuli (crowd/intimidation/level of play/etc.)

- fear of not reproducing success (in this case... shot making as a shooter)

- unanticipated (shooters are usually known and easily spotted, we (grain of salt, this is the internet) don't expect to get open) When we find ourselves open, sometimes that rattles our nerves more than being contested/closed out on.

This list could go on and on...

In all reality, 2k should use some other form/terminology to decipher the success of the users shot attempt. As a shooter, (this is the internet, I could be a computer nerd for all you know (nothing to gain here, just making a point)) if I achieve a "Perfect" release then that shot is cash money, guaranteed. The problem, as a shooter (bare with me here), in an actual game I am not getting a perfect release hardly ever. Conditions in an actual game are always less than ideal. This is noting more than a case of semantics... "Perfect" is the perfectly incorrect word to use (either that or it should be much much more difficult to actually accomplish).

My 2 worthless cents...

Carry on...

[birthday_massacre]

All I am saying is the AI needs to stop acting like an A+ shot is a D- shot when its near the end of the game and the CPU is behind.

As long as an A+ shot falls the same % in the first Q as it does in the last few minutes of the 4th Q when the CPU is playing catch up, then I am fine with that.

But that is not how the game works, no matte what your shot grade is, if the CPU wants to catch up, no matter how good your shot rating is, its just not going in.

And the funny thing is these shots are coming from Michael Jordan late in the 4th Q, who is missing all their A+, A or A- shots. There is nothing more annoying than being up by 10 with 3 minutes to go to have Jordan shoot 1/5 while the CPU is 4/5 from the 3 PT line, and of course that one miss they magically steal that rebound from Dennis Rodmans arms and put back in an easy two from under the basket.

I could see if the person shooting the A+ late in the game had a low clutch rating but itsw friggen Michael Jordan one of the most clutch players of all time.

I just don't want to see my team shooting 35-40% in the 4Q anymore and the CPU magically shooting 70%, and slides don't help because if will just throw off the early parts of the game which are fine.

This only happens when you get ahead by about 10 points or more in the 4th. Hell I had one game where I was ahead going into the 4th by 20 points and the CPU tied the game to go into OT.

I shot 20% in that 4Q and the CPU shot 74% and got every offensive rebound they missed and put it back in. I couldn't even hit free throws in that Q. I was 4 for 10. For some reason I always missed the first free throw.