2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

[Kushmir]

This is probably my last 2K18 post so i've saved the best for last:

First tho, I wanted to touch on how the highest level of gaming rewards users for out-thinking the opponent and taking advantage of their mistakes. It also punishes failure and mistakes. It provides a paper-rock-scissors kind of balance that provides counters...NOT DOING THIS goes against everything gaming is...its a core aspect. Consider these:

Planetside 2, super hardcore shooter I play. Not paying attention (which I usually do) I walk right into a proximity mine someone placed on the steps for a sucker. BOOM. I made a mistake and sealed my own fate.



Same game. Guy bearing down on me in a Sunderer (troop carrier--small arms fire won't hurt it) I run--he chases me. Hurt, I set a trap with C4, bait him...the rest is history.



Madden. 4th down, 4th quarter, down six points this guy goes for it. I know the QB sneak is coming and counter it by pinching my line and committing to inside run. ENJOY.



Planetside 2 again. Notice how bad aim (again: failure) gets these guys killed in a one on four. I also use the environment to engage them one by one instead of allowing them to overwhelm me. Failure is also represented in me losing count of how many there were and not looking for the last cloaked guy in the corner who ultimately kills me:



Madden again, OVERTIME. After 2 inside runs by Sproles this guy moves his weakside corner inside to help and I see it. One audible later......................



You kinda see the recurring theme. A crucial part of gaming is the User vs User strategy. Someone makes a mistake, you recognize it, counter it and Voila! Success.

Which brings me to the aspect of NBA 2K that breaks that crucial, unwritten Dev-User agreement to allow us to outsmart people and punish bad decisions...and not rewarding FAILURE. Block and Steal Timing (and ratings--which represent skillset)

First the good: There are countless instances of good steal/block timing coupled with a player with the actual skillset. I played a guy with MN the other night that got 10 blocks (the equivalent of 24 blocks in 12 min quarters) and while 2 were bad--the rest were fine, I went to the basket alot, he got bigs and went and got blocks. SIMPLE.

The same is true of steals, examples of good timing are everywhere: Here are two.





Now? The BAD. If good steal timing equals success? BAD timing equals what? FAILURE....right? Good and Bad timing should both attack the ball....its ridiculous that bad attempts would swing at air all of a sudden. More importantly: Bad things have to happen when you fail, no? I mean you wouldn't provide this HUGE window for success and a tiny one for actual failure....would you? You wouldn't allow failed attempts (spam essentially) to benefit the defense....Because then, savvy users would just use that to their benefit, like I did here:

End of game situation, so the clock is the 6th defender. I take a second defender (Bayless) run to Harden's outside shoulder so he's boxed in and spam steal...could a foul be called? Sure. But its unlikely--FACT: It simply doesn't happen often enough to alter my behavior. As expected, Harden gets trapped in an animation (note: I haven't stolen the ball, or even deflected it so i'm getting a favorable interaction for what is essentially failure) user panics and throws 2 bad passes (probably from hitting pass and getting no reaction) BALLGAME.



Here's what should have happened:







At best missed steals can't allow me to remain in optimal defensive position. If the reward is HUGE (and it IS--a turnover in a game with less than 40 possessions) the risk has to be significant, failure should cause me to lunge out of defensive position at the very least, see below:





While they look cool. Prolonged animations when defenders aren't successful is a SUPER BAD IDEA. It rewards spam and is potentially game-breaking in end-of-game situations and can force players into violations. Three seconds for instance.





Blocks are (if you can imagine it) worse....i'll touch on them in part 2.

[Crossover1]

Great post!

I won't get my hopes up that they will get this aspect of the game right based on past games. This game has been and seemingly will always be about height. Taller and longer players will always have an advantage in 2K because the animations are too athletic for the bigger, slower players. They cover too much ground and their reaction times are ridiculously quick.

With smaller players, it's the complete opposite.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

[Kushmir]

PART 2:

When we discuss blocks and steals we have remember how rare they are relative to the game. The league leaders in both average about 2 per game...thats the equivalent of 1 in 5 minute quarters.

More shots are "contested" by a wide margin than stolen or blocked. Gameplay has the tools (the right stick) to contest shots already....now can this be expanded to be more dynamic? Sure. But first we have to remember that while each instance is individual--the chances for a foul generally outnumber the chances for a block or steal by a pretty big margin....especially if players lack the skill-set.

Block Timing absolutely has to factor more into Block Success. Right now its generally horrible, for example: this guy fooled me. Regardless of Saric helping later this is a contact foul on Embiid that should be called instantly....staying in theme: Gameplay can't reward failure.



If there's a better example of bad block timing i've yet to see it. Just WOW. If this is a block? EVERYTHING IS.



Elite shot-blocker or not Embiid got fooled. Shot-blocks on the way down? Come now.



It gets worse, blocks before the shot? How?



Its almost funny how often bad block/steal timing is rewarded. The game ignores every instance this guy has horrible timing and gives him a block the ONE time its good? UGH. Thats a broken/inconsistent system.







The frequency that non shot blockers get out-of-position blocks after they get beat should be rare. Right now the chase-down block is considered a good play--thats ridiculous.



This Conley play is especially bad because he goes for a steal first, but since gameplay doesn't punish him with a foul or lunging out of position (which it should) he's able to block a 6'10" player in transition. Would I have a problem with him stripping the ball with good timing? nope. but a block? (his rating is 45) again: easy foul.



Worse, its created a spoiled and entitled playerbase that expects plays like that. Imagine getting angry because 6-6 Brandon Rush doesn't block a big in transition? AS IF.



Skillset has to matter as well. Its so bad right now that Rondo and Tyler Ulis (one of the lowest block ratings in the game: 35) are getting blocks. Let's be clear: These are possible...mathmatically atleast. Still, they should require almost perfect timing (which even then should sometimes get called) these should be fouls 19 times in 20 and gameplay should reflect that. Players like these should be attempting to strip the ball the same way Deandre Jordan is limited to a specific shooting range (i.e. 5 feet from the basket)





Here's what should be happening. Gameplay should reward us for out-smarting other users into falling for pump-fakes and punishing bad block timing with fouls as a rule:

















Now I get it, maybe you're saying "Wow, I mistime blocks too much.." (or try to block jumpshots) I think we all do, because gameplay is too forgiving and doesn't require us to rely on contesting shots more. For the game to achieve its potential it has to be more accountable and we should welcome this in a PVP setting. In Offline play? customize the game however you want, change settings and score 100 with your favorite player if you like....but in competitive play we should want/expect the highest level gameplay available....

And that means holding ourselves (and gameplay) to a higher standard. As always, players will adapt...2K competitive play goes on the grand stage with the NBA E-Sports League next year...it simply can't look like this.

[strawberryshortcake]

This is a tricky one for me because how would you account for real life situation where the smaller guy does block the taller fellow, and real life situations where the defender pressures the ball handler, continues to swipe at the ball without making contact on the ball handler's arms.


Blocking
If the user times his jump properly when using a smaller defender on a bigger offensive shooter, if it's always called a foul, isn't that taking "physics" out of the equation and implementing "artificial" (or whatever the proper word is) or some type of "pre-determined" outcome so to speak.

Curry is definitely not a shot blocker, but how would you ever account for the smaller guy ever able to block the taller guy in the paint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpXUA6q8pRA
@0:00 mark
@1:03 mark
@2:35 mark

With regards to your video and comment on the defender coming down to make a shot block, that actually happens in real life, as you probably know already. I know Draymond Green is an elite shot blocker, but he often blocks the shot when hes coming down because of his timing.

Blocking outside shooters ... is that the same as contesting outside shooters? How do you account for defenders often running, jumping to contest shooters and never getting called for a foul in real life because the defender doesn't actually touch the shooter despite being extremely close to the shooter.


Steals
Note: I usually go through an entire game without ever using the steal button. I like to use position to defend. Having said that, my problem with swipe and always making the defender lunge and essentially come to a slow recovery crawl is that that is not realistic either. In real life, I can stand in front of someone, and continue to swipe all day (or quickly try to poke at the ball) without ever lunging as much as 2k's steal-lunge animation plays out.

The defender should get punished not because they're tied up into a long lunging animation but because the offensive ball handler is able to immediately and explosively cross over and get by the defender even if the defender quickly pokes at the ball. Stealing shouldn't always have to result in foul or making the defender lunge to a slow recovery. 2k doesn't have a "poke at the ball" user input button, kind of like a "quick jab" in boxing so to speak.

[Kushmir]

All good questions:

1) I think we can all agree ratings represent what a player consistently does--not what they've done once. highlight films are anecdotal because 1) They don't show all the times a guy misses that play 2) they don't represent the whole...its all-good-plays-all-the-time. The reality is Curry has never averaged more than 0.3 bpg and his career average is 0.2--meaning he gets one block about every 5 games. A rating or result that has him at any level of success getting blocks would simply be inaccurate.

I deal in outcomes...in 20 outcomes his rating: 35 (with good timing) should yield success maybe 1 or 2 times in 20. Conversely, he's "good" at stealing the ball...averaging almost 2 spg for his career. His steal rating (77) would mean he'd have much more favorable outcomes trying to strip the ball. 4-5 times in 20 in my estimation.

I'm not saying these guys could NEVER get blocks...just that the chances for a foul would be much higher. Its not unlike shooting FTs with Andre Drummond...(his rating 38) provides a serious barrier to success. Hitting half your FTs with him is pretty good--i'm saying we have to be ok with that.

I'd argue the same thing re: shot-blocks on the way down. The vast majority are called fouls....so basing a system on what rarely happens makes about as much sense as doing a half-court shot rating. Blocks should require timing within the window of success. IMO the rating should indicate how often they could be successful when they hit that window. The same way FTs or good releases "miss" sometimes a person might hit the window but a lower rating means they miss the shot anyway. Dwight Howard getting a full bar on a 3pter for instance--getting a good release shouldn't always mean success. But Dwight Howard's shot block rating is 75--while it wouldn't mean he'd never foul someone with good timing....it WOULD mean that he'd have a high rate of shot-blocks with good timing....but timing STILL has to be a requirement regardless of rating.

In regards to real-life i've found its best defer to good gameplay/balance and make it a PRIORITY. If the defender has a chance at creating a turnover there has to be a chance at a negative outcome--if not you reward/encourage steal spam on every play--the risks can't be that disproportionate. Ask yourself: So should a person be able to get a steal on every play?

This is the same question posed re: FG percentages years ago. Short Answer: No, even if the shot is open you won't hit every shot...you'll just shoot a good percentage. In short the chances for being whistled for fouls will be much higher than steals success the same way 3pt % will be lower than dunk percentage. Its something that occurs less, so even if the situation is favorable sometimes it won't succeed.

In the end gameplay always, always tells the truth. Have you seen the level of steal spam online? We have to balance that before adding new features like the poke or auto-crossover you're suggesting...both the lunge and contact foul are already in the game...they just need to occur at a higher rate.

Here's an online game I played yesterday....decide for yourself if the level of steal spam is OK.

[strawberryshortcake]

First off, I definitely understand where you're coming from. There needs to be a counter on both ends, defensively and offensively to give the game balance. The same in real life. There are counters on the defensive and offensive end. We don't need certain actions to be completely overpowered. And believe me you, I certainly see "ratings" as an important part of the gameplay construct. It is important, but so is timing physics.

The reason why I still see my current stance having a certain percentage of merit is ball physics and timing physics (i.e. arms not going through ball, hands between ball and basket, someone going in for a dunk but a defender still has his hand positioned right at the ball, etc.).

A future gameplay mechanical element (much more overly complicated) that may come into play is using the analog stick to dictate your arms three dimensional spacial position or in which direction the body leans .... when going for a block, jumping to contest an outside shooter, where to position your right/left hand to steal the ball, how low do you want to swipe at the ball, etc.

I see the "green release" as something, maybe even completely, different than blocks or steals. Green release determines the persons shot motion. Green release perfect form, but doesn't necessary dictate the potential of the ball going through the basket. A person's shot rating or green release rating doesn't truly dictate how often hitting a green release will call for a made bucket. Something to that extent.

I just see blocks/steals as a timing mechanism. Ratings certainly have to come into play somehow, but can you really have ratings completely supercede proper timing for blocks/steals attempts. If someone times his swipe perfectly (i.e. hand meets ball) with the hand physically hitting the ball, would it be simulation for ratings to completely take over even though it was all-ball.

Player never gotten a steal in his life, so he has a 10% to 0% steal rating. But within the game of 2k, if the user uses the same player and times his steal correctly (physics, hand meets ball), do we still put "ratings" ahead of "timing," resulting in a foul even though on replay it clearly shows all ball.

Player never gotten a block in his life, so he has a 10% to 0% block rating. But within the game of 2k, if the user uses the same player and times his vertical jump to block correctly (physics, hand meets ball), do we still put "ratings" ahead of "timing," resulting in a foul even though on replay it clearly shows all ball.

I didn't get a chance to watch the entire video, but the first several minutes. I mean I could see a concern, but it looks like you were able to maneuver around pretty successfully. Those "spam steal" look more like clean swipes, or "tougher on ball defense," (i.e. Patrick Beverly type defense, Kawhi Leonard type defense, Draymond Green type defense etc.).

[Kushmir]

Yeah the video was pretty long--I almost didn't want to link it but its a good example of how bad steal spam is currently--and how the game doesn't punish bad block timing.

We're on the same team--we just have a different approach.....you'd like a lot of the game's aspects to supercede rating, I just believe ratings provide a necessary and healthy cap and range. They're the thing that prevents Ben Simmons and other non-shooters from shooting a good % from outside and allows strategy like giving him open jump-shots. Now keep in mind what i'm talking about is limited to PNO where actual NBA players/teams have static ratings and we have tons of data on their production and abilities. I think modes like MyPlayer and PRO-AM would be OK with the User Agency you're describing.

I've never been a "The ball went through his hand!" guy....I've played these games long enough to know the physics and body interactions are going to be full of holes. I prefer good interactions and balanced gameplay that rewards skill and strategy, if they're good I don't require the perfect physics--still, i'm not discounting your POV.

I just focus on balance, scale and removing exploits. To me skill is equal parts shot timing and being smart enough to have JJ Reddick shoot a last second 18 footer as opposed to Blake Griffin.....and not allowing Joel Embiid to get a block on the way down because gameplay can't reward my failure and bad timing. 94 block rating be damned lol.

The game holding us accountable for bad timing/using the wrong player on plays like this is important:



Because as we know...good timing nets this guy a steal--so bad timing has to have negative outcomes.

[PopcornJones77]

Good thread, man.

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