I wanted to join this discussion, as it's something i have talked about a lot in the past (And for this game on the NLSC). A couple things to get out of the way first:
1. It's an exaggeration to state that the blow-by issue is as bad as 2K18. On 2K18, with all defensive sliders up to 100, you could literally just run by anybody at any time. Kawhi is on you? Cool, just dribble by him and go to the hoop uncontested, it's really no different in that game than having Kyle Korver on you, you can run by bother of them. On 2K20, with defensive badges impacting the gameplay so much this year (which is not a good thing at time, and obviously they are not just having a major impact on defense either, on offense as well) guys like Kawhi, Beverley etc will give more resistance. The problem is, AVERAGE defenders easily get blown by, at will, all the time, and the help defense seldom reacts, and when they do... often times it's so late that it's a free layup
2. Blow bys are an issue, and IMO the perfect balance on defense was on 2K16. That aside, the defense intelligence in this game is incredibly poor the majority of the time. All you have to do to get a free layup is push the pace, or outlet and go on a fastbreak, and literally go wide on your path to the hoop, and you won't be touched. This can be done the majority of the time, regardless of sliders or level played on. Often times on the break (Far too often) defenders literally just move out of the way, they slide right out of your way so you can get an uncontested layup. Did they not slide out of your way? While, if they are not an elite defender with the appropriate badges etc, you can literally just run by them/through them, with little resistance.
3. An issue that presents itself often is being sucked in backwards and sideways into defenders unrealistically, so while you are completely frustrated with how easy it was for you to just run by the CPU with no strategy, now you are frustrated with being sucked backwards into a defender and forced into a passive layup animation when you were trying to finish strong.
I think a lot of the issues are amplified by the skating/lack of foot planting that exists in the game as well, and the user feels like he/she has less sense of control.
Here is an example of constant blow bys. I am Lowry, my defender is Rozier. Yes, Lowry IS stronger than Rozier, and yes Lowry would probably be able to bully Rozier at times. But just running by him on every possession? Or getting right under the rim every time I drive? That's not realistic at all. Not only that, the help (Which seldom comes) is either non-existent or comes late, I could shoot 70-80% doing this on straight line drives with Lowry in a game.
This is on default HOF, but I have jacked defensive sliders up, and I can do the same. A happy medium needs to be reached where this can't be done on almost every possession, where I can score at a high clip.
Here is an example of the CPU just moving out of the way. I am the Warriors, the CPU = Raptors. Van Vleet sliding out of the way, this literally happens a ton. This was with defensive sliders jacked up to 100, and while I never play on 2K cam, I did so for this example. Do you know how frustrating this is when it happens? It destroys the immersion. It's different when "instances" of this happen, like when it's rare, but when this happens at a consistent volume, it's super frustrating. Keep in mind, this would be frustrating if it happens in a game marketed as arcade, or simulation, because sport is a competition, and in BASKETBALL when some just moves out of your way so you can score, thats an issue.
Here is a video I made early on in the release, when I had put in quite a bit of time in the game. In this video I am highlighting a lot of my frustrations with the player movement, and don't touch much on defense. But, the second pack of clips is me just running by the CPU over and over again with Kemba Walker and scoring, I go 7 for 8 on straight line drives.
Again, we are talking VOLUME, which is amplifed by the volume of skating/floating players, and the being "sucked in" to other players around you. No doubt prior 2K's on this gen had issues, between the P&R defense on 2K17, the trailer three on 2K16, the blow bys on 2K18, the "heavy feel" of players on 2K19 (Westbrook feels like a slug), etc. And all the games have a fair share of legacy issues. So a few things I want to get out of the way:
1. Saying "All games have issues", and "Well this game had it worse", etc while not acknowledging that these are still pressing issues that should be addressed helps nothing.
2. Stating "well don't play that way" or "Pull back and run the offense" or "They don't play that way in real life" does not make the issues go away, furthermore, if teams COULD score at a 70-80% clip on straight line drives, all teams would be doing it in the NBA. Those excuses don't fly. The game is marketed as a simulation of basketball, do you have any idea how many times I have heard "Sim nation"?
If you are playing a game, and have to CONSTANTLY avoid exploits, bugs, and issues (not going wide in transition, not just running passed your defenders, etc) you are not playing real competitive basketball, and you are also more than likely frustrated at the fact that you have to keep dodging these issues.
If I have to pull back on a fastbreak just because the CPU moves out of the way and I dont want to have an easy score, that is an immersion killer. And an ISSUE that IMO should be addressed.
This goes back to my point that you shouldnt have to FAKE sim, or FAKE competition. If the whole game or majority of the game you are just trying to avoid the games issues, and not able to play loose and the way you want, that's a major red flag.
You shouldnt have to fake sim or fake competition, the game that is marketed as a sim ot a certain way should produce that result or atleast close to that result on the court. The game itself shouldn't have that many exploits (which are issues themselves), control and intelligence issues, etc etc
The player movement stuff, and the glaring defensive issues impact the whole match/game or the majority of the match/game for many users.
"Don't ISO and drive for an easy score if it's that easy, that's an exploit"
"Dont run by multiple defenders in transition constantly if it's that easy, it's an exploit"
"Dont go wide when pushing the pace to get easy baskets if it's that easy, it's an exploit"
Do you see how that makes no sense? Its COMPETITION, its sport. You shouldnt have to constantly avoid bugs and exploits during the game. You shouldnt have to FAKE sim, or not try and pursue the best scoring opportunity.
Yes, a long post. But I think it's feedback that is necessary, and needed. And, I am glad this thread was created. I wish it was a thread about defense in general, but it's a good start (I thought about creating my own thread about this). I own every 2K going back to the original, all the PC versions going back to 2K9 (First one they released), and all the Lives on this gen and last. This isn't a "If you don't like the game, just go play Live". That is one of the worst things you could say to someone who critiques a game, feedback done right is VITAL. And just because I have many gripes about 2K20's gameplay, doesn't mean that A) The feedback is not important, B) That I don't care about the series moving forward or C) That I don't care about others experiences with the game.
Furthermore, a lot of comments in here are based on player lock, online play (just using one player), and not factoring in all of the other modes and how these issues impact them. As in, MyTeam, Offline play now, 5 on 5 online, MyLeague, etc. Its important to talk about the other modes, as all gameplay is connected.
I am really looking forward to what 2K and EA does on the next generation of consoles.
I usually agree with EC. But, this year i think the onball defense is very realistic and the best its been in 2k.
This. On ball defense is now at a more happy medium and not too much to one side or the other. A big can't stay in front of a guard on the perimeter, a bad defender has to make sure and cut drive lanes properly and be in proper position, ect. And when your using elite defenders, you have a little more leeway...you still have to make sure your in proper position, but there's definitely some leeway and I think this is good cuz it seperates the elite defenders from horrible ones. For example, me and a friend were playing the other day and I had the 12-13 Grizzles and he had Lob City Clippers. I started Courtney Lee at SG and he started a linup with Paul at SG. He was absolutely killing Lee with Chris Paul on drives to the hoop and I had to make sure I jammed lanes up before he blew by. However, when I subbed Lee out and brought in Tony Allen, it was much easier cuz Allen is an elite defender. Allen was quick and could wall him off much easier. And even when he manage to get blow by's, we entered the riding animation and Allen could still keep up and contest him. So I like where it's at right now, cuz it differentiates the defenders. With bad defenders, you have to respect the drive, run them into help D, turbo over to jam lanes, ect. With good defenders, you can play a lot more suffocating D and you won't need much help at all.
Come on, I hear this constantly, you can bump guys IRL, have you guys played basketball, if you beat the offensive player to the spot he is not gonna blow by you.
I've played at a decent level, and continue to play. I've never been a part of any game or seen where guy's are constantly walling each other off on the perimeter possesion by possesion. There are tons and tons of full halfs and quarters of the NBA on YouTube, literally pick any any of them, not a clip, but continous action and it's something that's easily proven.
The game is centered around penetration, and it's difficult to stay in front of a decent player consistently. Yes, you can anticipate and block him off completely, but in most cases you're "carrying" him into help defense or riding his hip creating a barrier between him and the basket so that he takes a difficult/ contested shot, or has to make a contested pass.
That's why help defense is key, and needs to be done better in 2K. That, and we need more outcomes to the hip ride animation, the defense needs to "win" more of them and be rewarded for positioning. I'd still say 2K20 is balanced a lot better than 18/19 in this regard.
You have to be holding L2 and R2 the whole time when you're playing D vs people that spam dribble moves. In 19 you only needed L2 and the left and right stick to play D, in 20 you move laterally so slowly if you're not holding on turbo. Also, don't ride up on guys because most guys have slow releases and aren't that great at shooting anyway, so a 25% and over contest is usually enough to force a miss from just closing out
The issues currently are the terrible transition and help D by the AI
On-ball D is pretty realistic this year imo.
For whatever reason help and transition defense has completely regressed by the AI. It was already bad last year and somehow got worse. You cant even get them to listen to coach adjustments half the time.
The debate for real basketball verse 2k's basketball could go on forever, 2k basketball is 2k basketball, its not basketball, it would take them way more resources and effort to actual replicate basketball realistically, and WAY more focus, which from what iv seen in these games, is not their priority.
10-18-2019, 01:24 PM
