Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by AydinDubstep

- Countering should remain the same but the AIs unique combo selection should always favour the most likely to land strikes on the hardest difficulty, and only throw a wild shot like a spin jump kick when there is no counter opportunity for the player. Too many times I can catch legendary AI as they throw a silly strike by using fast strikes like the jav.

Great feedback.

That part surprised me a bit. Do you really think that happens too often?

[johnmangala]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

Great feedback. That part surprised me a bit. Do you really think that happens too often?

Any reason in particular you blatantly ignored my feedback again?

This is a pattern with y'all, so many of my ideas are in the game but y'all act like yall soley came up with it.

Example: Martial Mind liking my posts like that Hernandez KO over Dariush, Silva moves, etc and adding those things..

Obviously these ideas aren't patented and ideas can overlap. But then to turn around and have guys like you and aholbert say y'all never have looked at my posts and said that's a 'good idea'.. that they only "inspire" the devs.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

Any reason in particular you blatantly ignored my feedback again? This is a pattern with y'all, so many of my ideas are in the game but y'all act like yall soley came up with it. Example: Martial Mind liking my posts like that Hernandez KO over Dariush, Silva moves, etc and adding those things.. Obviously these ideas aren't patented and ideas can overlap. But then to turn around and have guys like you and aholbert say y'all never have looked at my posts and said that's a 'good idea'.. that they only "inspire" the devs.

Why does he have to respond to your feedback?

For example, I think an unbeatable AI is an unbelievably bad idea. I think it would be a waste of resources. Now typically, I would address that in the forums and I would have a back and forth about it.

What did I do with you? I saw it and didnt respond.

Wasnt in the mood to argue about it and saw that Skynet responded so I moved on.

Not to speak for Solid but Aydin's feedback was better. He has consistently provided AI feedback since release. He knows his ****. I liked his post better. Maybe Solid did too.

Finally, you dont know the intent of a "like". I've liked posts that are completely new ideas that no one has thought of. I've liked posts that support things I've told the devs I want in the game. I've like posts that I know wont be added to a future version of the game. I've liked posts sometimes as a clue that this is something that could be in the game.

Just because Martial likes a post of yours doesnt mean that the devs added it because they saw your post or he took that idea back to the devs. It just means he liked your post.

Anyway, lets not derail this thread. Its one of the few threads where a dev gives direct feedback regularly. You got a response from Skynet...be happy with that.

[AydinDubstep]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

Great feedback. That part surprised me a bit. Do you really think that happens too often?

I think the problem with it is IRL you tend to get a feel for the opponent first before attempting something like that, strikes like the handplant roundhouse, naked rear overhand, spinning attacks, even naked head kicks.

Here I can hold off for a while, peppering with simple strikes and just wait, sooner or later they will throw something big with a large counter window and I can catch them.

Whereas in real life, you'd be highly unlikely to attempt a move like say a handstand roundhouse, here if a fighter has it in their arsenal, sooner or later they will throw it regardless of how badly they were performing with the basic strikes.

Some fighters do just throw it out of the blue IRL, but the risk reward is quite high, and ingame it's easy to catch them once you have learned all the animation cues.

One example is the overhand. I find myself consistently able to land a head kick as the AI throws an overhand just by distance management. The AI might not recognise the trap I'm setting, whereas a player would.

IRL, if you throw an overhand and don't find yourself getting anywhere near the mark, you either keep spamming and get hurt, make adjustments to close the gap or better disguise the shot or abandon it for a different strike.

Here afaik, it's difficult for the AI to recognise to make an adjustment. Like how can they really figure out what the player is up to? I guess that's the limitation to it right. Then it's perhaps about creating complex patterns for the AI to use for example: jab overhand > player retreated on the jab so the overhand missed > next time the AI will throw a double jab overhand to cover the distance > player does something else to avoid the overhand so the AI does a strike cancel as it sees the shot missing

Perhaps if they are able to recognise the defensive patterns against the more basic shots, then they could throw in a wild one later down the line, using strike cancelling whenever a big shot is likely to miss.

Perhaps just tuning the AI to know the most efficient methods of combos and striking patterns, especially on the highest difficult and sticking to those rather than throwing what we'd see the dude do IRL. But then we lose that fighter authenticity unfortunately unless they are able to closer tune the meta to match real life.

For example Stephen Thompson IRL has his knee chambered constantly at a long range, so his side kick, back kick, front head kick, side oblique kick, comes out at a flash and has very specific movement tailored to it and functionally sound. Whereas ingame it visually looks good, functionally it doesn't work the same. So that's something to really look at for future if possible. I mean you would actually need an expert to really explain why he is so effective although some dudes here could probably explain it too.

It's like programming chess moves. We need to find better patterns for the AI to use on higher levels and work around what the player is doing and adjust based on what their AI template is capable of rather than giving them matrix timing or 100% block success.

Perhaps with more gameplay depth, things will get more complicated and more difficult. I mean, I'm probably a minority in thinking that blocking is too easy. But something like the Gaethje block front and side, up and down being separate would really make the game a lot harder vs the AI and far more interesting!

[Kingslayer04]

Quote: Originally Posted by AydinDubstep

I think the problem with it is IRL you tend to get a feel for the opponent first before attempting something like that, strikes like the handplant roundhouse, naked rear overhand, spinning attacks, even naked head kicks. Here I can hold off for a while, peppering with simple strikes and just wait, sooner or later they will throw something big with a large counter window and I can catch them. Whereas in real life, you'd be highly unlikely to attempt a move like say a handstand roundhouse, here if a fighter has it in their arsenal, sooner or later they will throw it regardless of how badly they were performing with the basic strikes. Some fighters do just throw it out of the blue IRL, but the risk reward is quite high, and ingame it's easy to catch them once you have learned all the animation cues. One example is the overhand. I find myself consistently able to land a head kick as the AI throws an overhand just by distance management. The AI might not recognise the trap I'm setting, whereas a player would. IRL, if you throw an overhand and don't find yourself getting anywhere near the mark, you either keep spamming and get hurt, make adjustments to close the gap or better disguise the shot or abandon it for a different strike. Here afaik, it's difficult for the AI to recognise to make an adjustment. Like how can they really figure out what the player is up to? I guess that's the limitation to it right. Then it's perhaps about creating complex patterns for the AI to use for example: jab overhand > player retreated on the jab so the overhand missed > next time the AI will throw a double jab overhand to cover the distance > player does something else to avoid the overhand so the AI does a strike cancel as it sees the shot missing Perhaps if they are able to recognise the defensive patterns against the more basic shots, then they could throw in a wild one later down the line, using strike cancelling whenever a big shot is likely to miss. Perhaps just tuning the AI to know the most efficient methods of combos and striking patterns, especially on the highest difficult and sticking to those rather than throwing what we'd see the dude do IRL. But then we lose that fighter authenticity unfortunately unless they are able to closer tune the meta to match real life. For example Stephen Thompson IRL has his knee chambered constantly at a long range, so his side kick, back kick, front head kick, side oblique kick, comes out at a flash and has very specific movement tailored to it and functionally sound. Whereas ingame it visually looks good, functionally it doesn't work the same. So that's something to really look at for future if possible. I mean you would actually need an expert to really explain why he is so effective although some dudes here could probably explain it too. It's like programming chess moves. We need to find better patterns for the AI to use on higher levels and work around what the player is doing and adjust based on what their AI template is capable of rather than giving them matrix timing or 100% block success. Perhaps with more gameplay depth, things will get more complicated and more difficult. I mean, I'm probably a minority in thinking that blocking is too easy. But something like the Gaethje block front and side, up and down being separate would really make the game a lot harder vs the AI and far more interesting!

I would love for pattern recognition to be a thing, I made a post about it some time ago too. It would also be great if the AI thought about its stamina and recognised when it's a good idea to slow down or clinch to conserve it.

Another thing that's absolutely huge is the AI recognising which fighter it's up against. It shouldn't be looking to take down elite grapplers unless it is an elite grappler itself. Also, even if it isn't up against someone you don't want to be on the ground with, it should recognise when it is unsuccessful with that tactic (or any other), instead of attempting mindless takedowns and clinch entries until it's absolutely gassed. I hope that's worked on.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by AydinDubstep

I think the problem with it is IRL you tend to get a feel for the opponent first before attempting something like that, strikes like the handplant roundhouse, naked rear overhand, spinning attacks, even naked head kicks. Here I can hold off for a while, peppering with simple strikes and just wait, sooner or later they will throw something big with a large counter window and I can catch them. Whereas in real life, you'd be highly unlikely to attempt a move like say a handstand roundhouse, here if a fighter has it in their arsenal, sooner or later they will throw it regardless of how badly they were performing with the basic strikes. Some fighters do just throw it out of the blue IRL, but the risk reward is quite high, and ingame it's easy to catch them once you have learned all the animation cues. One example is the overhand. I find myself consistently able to land a head kick as the AI throws an overhand just by distance management. The AI might not recognise the trap I'm setting, whereas a player would. IRL, if you throw an overhand and don't find yourself getting anywhere near the mark, you either keep spamming and get hurt, make adjustments to close the gap or better disguise the shot or abandon it for a different strike. Here afaik, it's difficult for the AI to recognise to make an adjustment. Like how can they really figure out what the player is up to? I guess that's the limitation to it right. Then it's perhaps about creating complex patterns for the AI to use for example: jab overhand > player retreated on the jab so the overhand missed > next time the AI will throw a double jab overhand to cover the distance > player does something else to avoid the overhand so the AI does a strike cancel as it sees the shot missing Perhaps if they are able to recognise the defensive patterns against the more basic shots, then they could throw in a wild one later down the line, using strike cancelling whenever a big shot is likely to miss. Perhaps just tuning the AI to know the most efficient methods of combos and striking patterns, especially on the highest difficult and sticking to those rather than throwing what we'd see the dude do IRL. But then we lose that fighter authenticity unfortunately unless they are able to closer tune the meta to match real life. For example Stephen Thompson IRL has his knee chambered constantly at a long range, so his side kick, back kick, front head kick, side oblique kick, comes out at a flash and has very specific movement tailored to it and functionally sound. Whereas ingame it visually looks good, functionally it doesn't work the same. So that's something to really look at for future if possible. I mean you would actually need an expert to really explain why he is so effective although some dudes here could probably explain it too. It's like programming chess moves. We need to find better patterns for the AI to use on higher levels and work around what the player is doing and adjust based on what their AI template is capable of rather than giving them matrix timing or 100% block success. Perhaps with more gameplay depth, things will get more complicated and more difficult. I mean, I'm probably a minority in thinking that blocking is too easy. But something like the Gaethje block front and side, up and down being separate would really make the game a lot harder vs the AI and far more interesting!

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Would you say it's more about the fancy moves being easy to interrupt, or easy to evade and whiff punish?

[johnmangala]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

Thanks for the detailed reply. Would you say it's more about the fancy moves being easy to interrupt, or easy to evade and whiff punish?

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Why does he have to respond to your feedback? For example, I think an unbeatable AI is an unbelievably bad idea. I think it would be a waste of resources. Now typically, I would address that in the forums and I would have a back and forth about it. What did I do with you? I saw it and didnt respond. Wasnt in the mood to argue about it and saw that Skynet responded so I moved on. Not to speak for Solid but Aydin's feedback was better. He has consistently provided AI feedback since release. He knows his ****. I liked his post better. Maybe Solid did too. Finally, you dont know the intent of a "like". I've liked posts that are completely new ideas that no one has thought of. I've liked posts that support things I've told the devs I want in the game. I've like posts that I know wont be added to a future version of the game. I've liked posts sometimes as a clue that this is something that could be in the game. Just because Martial likes a post of yours doesnt mean that the devs added it because they saw your post or he took that idea back to the devs. It just means he liked your post. Anyway, lets not derail this thread. Its one of the few threads where a dev gives direct feedback regularly. You got a response from Skynet...be happy with that.

It's not about anyone responding in particular. It's about the general undermining of feedback that goes against the established meta. Like I said, there should be a division of game-samers. Y'all smear ideas of people like me then beg the question by not supporting your premise that an unbeatable AI would be a waste of resources. Y?

The thing is I am not in the ever in the mood to defend evolving this game. Y'all constantly force people like me to argue by smearing and running away. I have generally present ideas only for established actors to swoop in and defend their status quo.


It's proved that these ideas can lead to more $ as they accommodate more demand and meets basic needs.


Also you missed the point on devs taking credit for unpatented ideas people presented here. You acknowledged people like Romero, etc having contributed to this game in that same thread by the same criteria... In that same and similar threads devs (including GPD, MM, you, Zombie, Altair, Zhunter, etc) under the same criteria ideas I campaigned are already in the game too... for example single collar stuns... Y'alls echo chamber is showing.

I know my feedback is better since I've inspired this collective evolution. It already exists in the game, like many entrance animations and anonymous mode (UT). It requires some abstraction but the idea is rooted -> practical and novel.

I understand I have been tone deaf and my framing has sucked but I've been reflecting back what I see. I am trying to filter it better now.

An unbeatable AI

Spoiler

I am referring to fighting an AI that's still vulnerable to being hurt in similar ways but just keeps surviving- like a gauntlet.

The issue imo is the focus on perfect counters, it's been immersion breaking (unrealistic) for many for many years. Instead maybe more sliders which tune such things to the gamer's preference. There are already presets which are defense only (block, sway, move)- balancing these tuner sets can provide a variety of combinations. I feel an unbeatable AI can be more immersive depending on how it's tuned.. imagine fighting Prime Fedor/Jon Jones as the can.

It's true you'd eventually lose but it'd be like fighting the AI unbound... no template but it IQs you then executes => God mode.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

It's not about anyone responding in particular. It's about the general undermining of feedback that goes against the established meta. Like I said, there should be a division of game-samers. Y'all smear ideas of people like me then beg the question by not supporting your premise that an unbeatable AI would be a waste of resources. Y? The thing is I am not in the ever in the mood to defend evolving this game. Y'all constantly force people like me to argue by smearing and running away. I have generally present ideas only for established actors to swoop in and defend their status quo. It's proved that these ideas can lead to more $ as they accommodate more demand and meets basic needs. Also you missed the point on devs taking credit for unpatented ideas people presented here. You acknowledged people like Romero, etc having contributed to this game in that same thread by the same criteria... In that same and similar threads devs (including GPD, MM, you, Zombie, Altair, Zhunter, etc) under the same criteria ideas I campaigned are already in the game too... for example single collar stuns... Y'alls echo chamber is showing. I know my feedback is better since I've inspired this collective evolution. It already exists in the game, like many entrance animations and anonymous mode (UT). It requires some abstraction but the idea is rooted -> practical and novel. I understand I have been tone deaf and my framing has sucked but I've been reflecting back what I see. I am trying to filter it better now. An unbeatable AI Spoiler I am referring to fighting an AI that's still vulnerable to being hurt in similar ways but just keeps surviving- like a gauntlet. The issue imo is the focus on perfect counters, it's been immersion breaking (unrealistic) for many for many years. Instead maybe more sliders which tune such things to the gamer's preference. There are already presets which are defense only (block, sway, move)- balancing these tuner sets can provide a variety of combinations. I feel an unbeatable AI can be more immersive depending on how it's tuned.. imagine fighting Prime Fedor/Jon Jones as the can. It's true you'd eventually lose but it'd be like fighting the AI unbound... no template but it IQs you then executes => God mode.

I honestly have no idea about what you are talking about. I wont talk about anyone else. I'll talk about me.

I said in the past that I dont recall a single time where a thread or idea of yours was brought up behind the scenes in a positive way. I do recall where several other people here have had other threads that were and some of those ideas were built on by the devs. I also recall running a search in our old GC Slack just to confirm what I said and my search confirmed it.

I stand by that statement. I swear on my child that if there was evidence of an idea that originated with you appearing in the game...I would tell you.

No one is smearing your idea. I dont like the idea. I can dislike an idea without it being a smear.

I also dont have to write paragraphs defending my position every time that I disagree with someone. Just like I dont write paragraphs agreeing about ideas I agree with. I like it....and move on. I say I dont like it....and try to move on. The issue is you wont let anyone move on.

Let me restate something again: Just because something you write here appears in the game doesnt mean that you were the one who came up with the idea. For example, I'm sure I can find someone on this forum who said we should add driving takedowns and now we have driving takedowns. Now its possible that GPD saw that post and said "Lets add driving takedowns at the next mo cap session". Its also possible that driving takedowns have been on his mo cap list for years (well before the post) and he wasnt able to get them in the game until recently.

Finally, if you cant tell, I like to argue and debate. I'm a lawyer. Its part of what I do everyday and I love it. With that said, I dont enjoy debating you because the debates go down the same rabbit hole and its stops being worth my time. Like I could lay out every reason I think an unbeatable AI is a waste of resources. I do stuff like that all the time when defending a position. The problem is based on past experiences, I know you arent going to move one inch off of your current position and you will likely just restate what you said over and over again.

Also, your focus is completely wrong. You waste SO MUCH time trying to convince GCs about your ideas. Having GC support would be nice but there are a good amount of ideas that have been added to the game that dont have full or any GC support.

You want your unbeatable AI to be added to the game? Convince Skynet. Dont get mad because Solid wont "like" your post. Dont get mad at me because I dont feel like having a full out debate with you about this subject. I think its a bad idea but here is the thing...if Skynet puts it in the game, it doesnt matter to me. I just wouldnt ever play that mode/difficulty level. Thats why I didnt comment on it.

Your current approach isnt likely to convince anyone so focus on ways to correct that instead of who likes your idea.