MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

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  • seanjeezy
    The Future
    • Aug 2009
    • 3347

    #31
    Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

    Originally posted by yyhy
    Pitch types and velocities can be found. Putting them in is hard, but doable.

    Does anyone have any info on a formula or way to accurately rate movement and control on a given pitch? It has to be weighted against a league average, obviously. Rivera having a 90-something on his cutter movement perhaps, then moving down from there. Also, how can we assign BB/9, HR/9 and things like that?

    I've asked this question in the full minors thread, because I know Razr and others in previous years have done things like this. I'd be willing to do some of the work, if one of the more experienced people here could just point me in the right direction.
    Don't know if this helps, but for '11 I made a chart with the maximum horizontal, vertical, and overall movement for each pitch type here

    Keep in mind this is based of of Brooks Baseball data, which incorporates gravity for vertical movement and possibly horizontal movement, and goes off of their pitch classifications, i.e. Andrew Bailey's cutter gets 99 movement because it had 6+ inches of horizontal movement, where Mo gets ~75 movement(can't remember off the top of my head) because his cutter had ~4.5 inches of movement
    Last edited by seanjeezy; 03-09-2012, 11:52 AM.
    Bakin' soda, I got bakin' soda

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    • OSfan093
      Rookie
      • Mar 2011
      • 184

      #32
      Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

      Originally posted by Qb
      Charlie Morton, SP, Pittsburgh

      ADD: Sinker, Cutter
      REMOVE: Slider

      New Repertoire: SNK, CV, CH, 4FB, CUT

      He needs a sinker with lots of movement as his primary pitch. He rarely throws a traditional 4-seamer, and even that isn't all that straight due to his low 3/4s arm slot. 4SFB should be his #4 pitch behind the curve & change and ahead of his cutter. Individual average pitch velocities and usage numbers can be found at each of the links.

      Here is his Fangraphs PITCHf/x page. Notice the use of what's classified as a two-seam fastball (FT) 65.8% of the time. The 2011 movement on this pitch is (-9.1, 1.6), which is quite a lot for a fastball to say the least.

      For a comparison, Roy Halladay's much-ballyhooed sinker/two-seamer (again classified as 2SFB by Fangraphs) checks in at (-9.7, 3.2). So Morton gets slightly less armside run with somewhat more sink. Obviously, "Ground Chuck" doesn't have the command over the pitch Halladay does, but in terms of movement (and velocity), they are strikingly similar. But in case you don't believe me, there is a video on the subject as well: http://youtu.be/iWGzVATURK0 (sorry, won't embed)


      To get a visual feel for how his pitches move (and frequency), here is a great catcher's perspective spin movement graph from his Texas Leaguers page. I used from August on due to some mid-season changes in his repertoire, notably more cutters and fewer sliders, as well as more fading changeups than straight-changes.


      a couple issues i have here...doesn't charlie throw More horizantally than Halladay. I've seen his pitching in person(where they list his movement stats at the stadium) and on TV and i swear he throws a "2 seamer" for the show standards(i.e. runs at like a 45 degree angle), although i think he uses a sinker grip(not sure though)....and he DEFINATELY throws a running fastball, not a 4 seamer. i don't think he ever throws 4 seamers, just 2 seamers that run a ton high in the zone. also great catch on the cutter, he threw that in later in the season and they still have him throwing a slider, which he really never throws anymore.

      one big problem is, and they always talk about it on the pirates games, in the show if you throw a 2 seamer up high it moves the same way but less. Charlie throws that 2 seamer up high and it runs more horizontally and less vertical, like a running fastball. i wish they would represent that in game somehow with the 2 seam movement. oh and he throws a Circle Change according to your chart right?

      and on another note.... JOEL HANRAHAN CP PIRATES

      He throws a running fastball, not a 4 seamer. It runs a ton. and its way faster than 94(his in game speed). he averaged 97.1 mph last year on his fastball. and 87 on his slider(which is like 85 in game). my source is fangraphs.com but i don't have time right now to post the link exactly, look it up.

      Comment

      • AnEternalEnigma
        Rookie
        • Nov 2010
        • 77

        #33
        Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

        PITCHER: Craig Kimbrel (Braves)
        WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED: Take away his changeup entirely. He does not throw one. All he throws is a four-seam fastball, a slider, and rarely a two-seam fastball. Increase his four-seam fastball velocity to top at 100.

        Comment

        • Melanconfan
          Rookie
          • May 2008
          • 242

          #34
          Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

          Player: Gio Gonzalez, Washington Nationals
          Remove: Slider

          None of his pitches when graphed fit for the typical movement seen from a slider. This is seen with brooksbaseball's player cards.

          http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=461829

          Comment

          • AftershockFx
            Rookie
            • Feb 2008
            • 340

            #35
            Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

            Originally posted by Qb
            Charlie Morton, SP, Pittsburgh

            ADD: Sinker, Cutter
            REMOVE: Slider

            New Repertoire: SNK, CV, CH, 4FB, CUT

            He needs a sinker with lots of movement as his primary pitch. He rarely throws a traditional 4-seamer, and even that isn't all that straight due to his low 3/4s arm slot. 4SFB should be his #4 pitch behind the curve & change and ahead of his cutter. Individual average pitch velocities and usage numbers can be found at each of the links.

            Here is his Fangraphs PITCHf/x page. Notice the use of what's classified as a two-seam fastball (FT) 65.8% of the time. The 2011 movement on this pitch is (-9.1, 1.6), which is quite a lot for a fastball to say the least.

            For a comparison, Roy Halladay's much-ballyhooed sinker/two-seamer (again classified as 2SFB by Fangraphs) checks in at (-9.7, 3.2). So Morton gets slightly less armside run with somewhat more sink. Obviously, "Ground Chuck" doesn't have the command over the pitch Halladay does, but in terms of movement (and velocity), they are strikingly similar. But in case you don't believe me, there is a video on the subject as well: http://youtu.be/iWGzVATURK0 (sorry, won't embed)


            To get a visual feel for how his pitches move (and frequency), here is a great catcher's perspective spin movement graph from his Texas Leaguers page. I used from August on due to some mid-season changes in his repertoire, notably more cutters and fewer sliders, as well as more fading changeups than straight-changes.

            As someone who watches every almost every Pirate game on TV I couldn't agree more of your assessment of Charlie Morton's pitch repertoire.

            Last season Joel Hanrahan topped out at 97.1 MPH on his fastball. What fangraphs has incorrect is the fact Joel seldomly threw his change up last year which according to fan graphs he didn't ...

            Fangraphs:
            Joel Hanrahan

            A.J. Burnett needs a Knuckle curve added to his repitore and the rating on his 12-6 slightly boosted ...

            Fangraphs:
            A.J. Burnett

            I'll take a closer look in a little while and see what else needs to be adjusted for Pittsburgh.
            « My Teams »
            NFL:
            Pittsburgh Steelers
            MLB: Pittsburgh Pirates
            NHL: Pittsburgh Penguins

            Comment

            • seanjeezy
              The Future
              • Aug 2009
              • 3347

              #36
              Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

              Justin Masterson

              Remove:
              Changeup
              - out of ~3000 pitches, he threw it 14 times, not enough to warrant putting it in the game
              4seam

              Edit:
              Sinker
              - needs to be his primary pitch, boosted to 92mph

              Add:
              Running fastball
              - his fastball has enough horizontal movement to qualify as a running fastball

              source
              Last edited by seanjeezy; 03-08-2012, 10:57 PM.
              Bakin' soda, I got bakin' soda

              Comment

              • seanjeezy
                The Future
                • Aug 2009
                • 3347

                #37
                Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                Doug Fister

                Remove:
                4 seam
                Changeup
                Slider

                Add:
                Sinker
                - Primary Pitch
                Circle-Change
                Cutter -
                Secondary Pitch
                Running Fastball

                Brooks Baseball

                Not Sure why we can't link mlb.com videos, but check out Fister's 13K performance against the indians - every pitch moves a ton
                Bakin' soda, I got bakin' soda

                Comment

                • lvann4x
                  Rookie
                  • Mar 2012
                  • 146

                  #38
                  Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                  Originally posted by Melanconfan
                  I just played a game against Ogando and he was consistently 95 and above. He's fine.
                  Interesting. When I play AGAINST him, he throws the proper velocity.
                  When I play AS him, he throws too slow. And this is while using pulse pitching.
                  Very strange.

                  Comment

                  • santi171
                    Rookie
                    • Jan 2011
                    • 31

                    #39
                    Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                    This is how I have my Yankees sent up, after EXTENSIVE research:
                    RP #62 Chamberlain – Gen 29 motion (4SFB 94.5, SL 86.6, CV 80.1, CH 82.9, 2SFB 92.7)
                    RP #31 Feliciano - Fuentes motion (SNK 87.7, SL 77.7, CH 76.0, CUT 82.6, 4SFB 87.5)
                    SP #36 Garcia – Hanson/Garcia motion (4SFB 86.9, SL 80.1, CH 79.4, 2SFB 87.4, SPL 79.8)
                    SP #65 Hughes – Hughes motion (4SFB 91.4, 12-6 74.6, CUT 86.3, CIR-CH 83.9)
                    SP #18 Kuroda - Kuroda motion (SNK 91.9, 4SFB 92.1, SL 84.3, SPL 87.9, CV 79)
                    RP #48 Logan – Gen 120 motion (4SFB 93.0, SL 81.5, SNK 93.4, CH 86.9, CV 79.8)
                    SP #47 Nova – Nova motion (4SFB 92.4, CV 80.2, CH 85.5, SINK 92.7, SL 86.4)
                    SP #35 Pineda - Pineda motion (4SFB 94.7, SL 84, CUT 95, CIR-CH 86.3, 2SFB 96.3)
                    RP #39 Rapada – Rapada motion (SL 76.9, 4SFB 87.1, SNK 86.2, CH 77.9)
                    CP #42 Rivera – Rivera motion (CUT 91.3, 4SFB 92.2, 2SFB 92.8)
                    RP #30 Robertson – Gen 64 motion (4SFB 92.4, CV 80.5, CUT 92.8, CH 86.8)
                    SP #52 Sabathia – Sabathia motion (4SFB 93.9, SL 81.6, SINK 93.0, CIR-CH 86.6, SLUV 77.2)
                    RP #29 Soriano - Soriano motion (4SFB 92.9, CUT 91.7, SL 82.2, 2SFB 94.7)
                    RP #53 Wade - Gen 9 motion (4SFB 88.7, CH 81.4, CV 74.1, SL 83.9, 2SFB 90.4)

                    Comment

                    • Qb
                      All Star
                      • Mar 2003
                      • 8797

                      #40
                      Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                      Originally posted by OSfan093
                      a couple issues i have here...doesn't charlie throw More horizantally than Halladay. I've seen his pitching in person(where they list his movement stats at the stadium) and on TV and i swear he throws a "2 seamer" for the show standards(i.e. runs at like a 45 degree angle), although i think he uses a sinker grip(not sure though)....and he DEFINATELY throws a running fastball, not a 4 seamer. i don't think he ever throws 4 seamers, just 2 seamers that run a ton high in the zone. also great catch on the cutter, he threw that in later in the season and they still have him throwing a slider, which he really never throws anymore.

                      one big problem is, and they always talk about it on the pirates games, in the show if you throw a 2 seamer up high it moves the same way but less. Charlie throws that 2 seamer up high and it runs more horizontally and less vertical, like a running fastball. i wish they would represent that in game somehow with the 2 seam movement. oh and he throws a Circle Change according to your chart right?

                      and on another note.... JOEL HANRAHAN CP PIRATES

                      He throws a running fastball, not a 4 seamer. It runs a ton. and its way faster than 94(his in game speed). he averaged 97.1 mph last year on his fastball. and 87 on his slider(which is like 85 in game). my source is fangraphs.com but i don't have time right now to post the link exactly, look it up.
                      I don't disagree with your thoughts on Morton. In fact, my personal pitch edits for him in '11 had his repertoire as: SNK, 2FB, SCV, CCH, CUT. For me, that is the ideal representation of "Ground Chuck" as it practically guarantees a steady diet of low sinking fastballs when facing the AI.

                      However, I was trying to keep it simple in hopes of seeing at least the basic change of a sinker, and I'm not sure how/where SCEA draws the line when classifying certain pitches based on movement (eg, CH/CCH). In addition, he threw two types of changeups last year; one that faded more and a split-change that was straighter (announcers talked about it often and can be seen in the graph). Ultimately, rather than risk being completely disregarded for being too radical, I chose the safer approach in hopes of at least getting a basic revision in place.

                      As for Hanrahan, I bumped his velocity last night and replaced his CH with a 2FB. I wouldn't argue with a RFB in place of 4FB, but I'd rather give him the 2FB to capture his moving fastball and keep the 4FB to blow guys away. You can see a very high concentration of what would be his 4FB/Running FB, but there is also another less distinct group with slightly more run & sink that could be seen as two-seamers.



                      I'm all in favor of removing changeups from relievers who only throw a handful per year (Hanrahan threw 5 all year)... although I may be slightly biased because I can't hit them when I'm sitting on upper-90s gas.
                      Last edited by Qb; 03-09-2012, 11:15 AM.

                      Comment

                      • zukes
                        Pro
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 703

                        #41
                        Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                        I have corrected all of the Jays using pitch fx. I will try to remember to update, but if I recall, pretty much every pitcher on the staff has at least one change, some more.

                        Off the top of my head, Frasor only threw 3 pitch types all last year, he has 5 in the game. Henderson Alvarez in the game has a 4 seamer at 90MPH, when in reality he throws his sinker and fastball in the mid to upper 90's and touches 100MPH from time to time.

                        Comment

                        • OSfan093
                          Rookie
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 184

                          #42
                          Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                          Originally posted by Qb
                          I don't disagree with your thoughts on Morton. In fact, my personal pitch edits for him in '11 had his repertoire as: SNK, 2FB, SCV, CCH, CUT. For me, that is the ideal representation of "Ground Chuck" as it practically guarantees a steady diet of low sinking fastballs when facing the AI.

                          However, I was trying to keep it simple in hopes of seeing at least the basic change of a sinker, and I'm not sure how/where SCEA draws the line when classifying certain pitches based on movement (eg, CH/CCH). In addition, he threw two types of changeups last year; one that faded more and a split-change that was straighter (announcers talked about it often and can be seen in the graph). Ultimately, rather than risk being completely disregarded for being too radical, I chose the safer approach in hopes of at least getting a basic revision in place.

                          As for Hanrahan, I bumped his velocity last night and replaced his CH with a 2FB. I wouldn't argue with a RFB in place of 4FB, but I'd rather give him the 2FB to capture his moving fastball and keep the 4FB to blow guys away. You can see a very high concentration of what would be his 4FB/Running FB, but there is also another less distinct group with slightly more run & sink that could be seen as two-seamers.



                          I'm all in favor of removing changeups from relievers who only throw a handful per year (Hanrahan threw 5 all year)... although I may be slightly biased because I can't hit them when I'm sitting on upper-90s gas.
                          I thought Joel already had a 2 seam fastball in the game....and i agree with your assesment of Charlie Morton, i was merely saying that what you are calling a sinker, i think should be a 2 seamer and what you call a 2 seamer i think should be a RFB. But i'd be happy with any changes made to represent his real life repitoire.

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                          • ComfortablyLomb
                            MVP
                            • Sep 2003
                            • 3548

                            #43
                            Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                            Originally posted by BobSacamano
                            Clay Buchholz, Boston Red Sox

                            Buchholz's in-game repertoire is the repertoire he featured in his first few years in the league, but in the last two years he's reinvented his game. Big change is that he has ditched his slider in favor of a CUTTER, and throws his 4-seam FB much less. He now features the following pitches (with frequency):

                            2-seam FB/Sinker/whatever you want to call it (36%)
                            Cutter (19%)
                            Change-up (17%)
                            4-seam FB (15%)
                            Curveball (13%)

                            Basically, he's a FB-Cutter-Change pitcher now. His curve is more a show-me pitch than an out pitch.

                            Here's his Brooks Baseball card: http://www.brooksbaseball.net/player...?player=453329
                            Buchholz definitely does NOT throw a sinker in the way The Show splits it from a 2-seamer. He may mix in a 2-seamer occasionally but he's primarily 4-seamer, cutter, change, curve. No slider. My edit has him with just four pitches since I think the pitchfx data showing a distinct 2-seamer is mostly noise anyway - probably just his 4-seamer but not quite nailing his release point.
                            Last edited by ComfortablyLomb; 03-09-2012, 05:32 PM.

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                            • Cavicchi
                              MVP
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 2841

                              #44
                              Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                              Originally posted by AnEternalEnigma
                              PITCHER: Craig Kimbrel (Braves)
                              WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED: Take away his changeup entirely. He does not throw one. All he throws is a four-seam fastball, a slider, and rarely a two-seam fastball. Increase his four-seam fastball velocity to top at 100.
                              Kimbrel's average 4-seam fastball speed is 96, and I don't see him hitting 100 on fangraphs. He doesn't have a changeup, as you said. While the 2-seamer is rarely thrown, under 1% it is still in his repertoire.

                              The link to Kimbrel on fangraphs http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.asp...655&position=P

                              Comment

                              • Cavicchi
                                MVP
                                • Mar 2004
                                • 2841

                                #45
                                Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

                                Originally posted by Russell_SCEA
                                Just post the full name of the player and the pitch(s) edits that needs to be made. Please provide proof that the player does or doesn't throw the pitch(s) you are posting about.




                                Player Name:
                                What Pitch(s) needs to be added or removed:
                                Brian Wilson of the Giants is primarily a 2-pitch guy, 4-seam fastball and slider. According to FanGraphs, he only threw fastball and slider last year http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.asp...485&position=P

                                There are some pitchers in baseball who throw just 2 pitches, but in the game all pitchers must have 3 even if they only throw 2 types.

                                Mariano Rivera is another who throws just 2 pitch types, Cutter and 4 seam fastball:

                                http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.asp...844&position=P

                                Last edited by Cavicchi; 03-10-2012, 01:30 PM.

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