Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

[Brandon13]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

Kind of weird selection criteria. I would rather just say 90 WAR, .399 career wOBA = HoFer.

Why is that weird? Those are standard benchmarks held up over a long career. Drop it to 8,000 or 9,000 PA, the list doesn't get much longer.

[55]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

Serious question,

Is there a thread around here explaining different SABR stats and their uses? If not, there should be. I know about WAR, ERA+, and OPS+ but that's basically it. I'm sure there's a lot of others who could use the information as well. I guess I'll have to study fan graphs for a little while

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/

Just check that out and scroll down in each category to select the individual stats.

There isn't a better place online that explains them as well as there.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/

Just check that out and scroll down in each category to select the individual stats.

There isn't a better place online that explains them as well as there.

Thanks. That's exactly the kind of resource I was looking for.

EDIT: Just got done reading up on wOBA. It's amazing how far we've come from just relying on batting average to stats that weigh different methods of reaching base against each other. Baseball really has come a long way.

[55]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

It sure has. It's a shame that some people refuse to adapt though.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

Kind of weird selection criteria. I would rather just say 90 WAR, .399 career wOBA = HoFer.

.300/.400/.500 is the sabermetric holy trinity.

Holding that line over 10,000 PAs at 3B is mildly impressive.

[jth1331]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

It sure has. It's a shame that some people refuse to adapt though.

The thing that always gets me for some of the stuff, is where exactly are these guys pulling these numbers from. I'm always one that likes to ask why about things, and I constantly have to watch myself because I keep on asking why about some of these statistics. Why is OBP worth 1.8 times more than slugging. Why in wOBA is a single worth .89, a double 1.26 and so on.

[snepp]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

Why is OBP worth 1.8 times more than slugging.

It's due to the double counting of hits in OPS. If I walk, it only gets credited in OBP, but if I single it counts in both. For most players it doesn't matter, it's only at the extremes where OPS over or under values a player. Low OBP, high SLG players get overrated while high OBP, low SLG players get underrated.

Why in wOBA is a single worth .89, a double 1.26 and so on.

They're linear weights, a process that dates back to the 70's and has stood up well to three decades of sabermetric advances and scrutiny.

http://www.tangotiger.net/wiki/index.php?title=Linear_Weights

[lonewolf371]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

Why is that weird? Those are standard benchmarks held up over a long career. Drop it to 8,000 or 9,000 PA, the list doesn't get much longer.

Because it's arbitrary. What if a guy batted .299, .399, .499? Is he a HoFer?

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

Because it's arbitrary. What if a guy batted .299, .399, .499? Is he a HoFer?

In 10,000 at-bats? Yes.

[Brandon13]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

Because it's arbitrary. What if a guy batted .299, .399, .499? Is he a HoFer?

Yes. Absolutely. Hell, only 30 players have gone .280, .380, .480 over 8,000 PA Link. So yes, you're guy would be a lock.

I didn't post that to make the HOF case for Chipper. I just assumed in the 4 1/2 years since I created the thread that was no longer a question. I just wanted to post those statistics for the people who do not quite realize how good he has truly been.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

What about .285, .380, .510?

That's basically Fred McGriff.

(rounded his OBP from .377, that's why he's not on that list, further proving how arbitrary stat cutoffs really are)

[Sportsforever]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

What about .285, .380, .510?

That's basically Fred McGriff.

IMO, McGriff should be in the HOF. Having 493 career homers instead of 500 is what probably has kept him out in the voters eyes, but they forget he lost about a half season worth of games in 1994-1995. He would have exceeded 500 easily with those.

The other thing is that McGriff did most of his damage pre-steroid era when 35 homers was an accomplishment, yet I think he probably gets lumped into the steroid era and his accomplishments don't look as good. He would be a borderline HOF'r, but I certainly think he should be in (fwiw, he compares favorably to Willie Stargell and Willie McCovey).

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

IMO, McGriff should be in the HOF. Having 493 career homers instead of 500 is what probably has kept him out in the voters eyes, but they forget he lost about a half season worth of games in 1994-1995. He would have exceeded 500 easily with those.

The other thing is that McGriff did most of his damage pre-steroid era when 35 homers was an accomplishment, yet I think he probably gets lumped into the steroid era and his accomplishments don't look as good. He would be a borderline HOF'r, but I certainly think he should be in (fwiw, he compares favorably to Willie Stargell and Willie McCovey).

I agree. If he had 7 more homers, he'd be in. Which is stupid. (That 7 homers is what's keeping him out I mean)

[Brandon13]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

What about .285, .380, .510?

That's basically Fred McGriff.

(rounded his OBP from .377, that's why he's not on that list, further proving how arbitrary stat cutoffs really are)

Well, yeah, they're arbitrary. But the whole HoF process is.

McGriff probably doesn't (didnt'?) receive enough support. But he was a 1B in the heart of the steroid era, so that's probably his largest issue.

Edit: Still, even being as arbitrary as stat cutoffs are, that list of seven players that Chipper is including with is pretty incredible considering the standards that were in place.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Chipper Jones a HOF'er?

McGriff not being in the HOF is ridiculous.