Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I will forever maintain Andruw Jones ought to get considerable consideration for being an undervalued elite player in the pre-WAR era.

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He should be a hall of famer. He did enough imo even with his monumental collapse.

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[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Speaking of monumental collapses...

Cliff Lee. Look up his 08-13 run (including the 2 WS runs). If you told me in 2013 he wouldn't make the HOF, I would get you contained in an insane asylum. He's gonna end up like Johan. Fantastic pitcher whose career was hurt by injury. And should get debated like Edgar and Raines did, like Andruw and Jones will in the next few years but won't. Then will fall off in like 2 years.

Also it's going to be interesting to see exactly how the benchmarks change after Kershaw, Verlander and Scherzer all get in.

[CBoller1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Speaking of monumental collapses...

Cliff Lee. Look up his 08-13 run (including the 2 WS runs). If you told me in 2013 he wouldn't make the HOF, I would get you contained in an insane asylum. He's gonna end up like Johan. Fantastic pitcher whose career was hurt by injury. And should get debated like Edgar and Raines did, like Andruw and Jones will in the next few years but won't. Then will fall off in like 2 years.

Also it's going to be interesting to see exactly how the benchmarks change after Kershaw, Verlander and Scherzer all get in.

I'd add Greinke to that last list of pitchers. His career numbers are eerily similar to Verlander

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'd add Greinke to that last list of pitchers. His career numbers are eerily similar to Verlander

Yea he and Hamels are the only ones in the tier below them to definitely talk about right now. The guy that are probably in at some point but aren't shoe in candidates like if they retired today they're 100% without a doubt in.

The guys after them get real sketchy though. You're looking at guys like Price, Felix, Cliff Lee for the ones closer to enshrinement. Then you're talking about guys that are like 30 like MadBum, Sale, Cueto. And you're ones with possible enshrinement are MadBum and Sale really but they're both like 30 so we're 10 years away from eligibility at best (if both retire at 35 or so).

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Also looking at the new classes between now and 2025 (Ichiro's retirement, why it's listed on the HOF site). I came up with 17 new debatable (based on total amount of work AND/or peak [ie Tulo, Wright, Prince Fielder]) and likely inductions. Listed them here if you wanna look at them: https://twitter.com/redsox4evur_os/s...015913989?s=20

So this brings me to another thought about the HOF. It's not necessary to remove or increase the maximum numbers of votes a writer gets from 10. What happened is we just hit a little snag in the road where a few different things happened. Voters (new and old) and analysts view on how to look at player's career completely changed (aka raise of sabermetrics), we had a lot of good to great players from the hottest era in baseball all reach the ballot for the first time and there was a 5/6 year period where the BBWAA only inducted 1 or 2 guys or didn't induct anyone.

[CBoller1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Also looking at the new classes between now and 2025 (Ichiro's retirement, why it's listed on the HOF site). I came up with 17 new debatable (based on total amount of work AND/or peak [ie Tulo, Wright, Prince Fielder]) and likely inductions. Listed them here if you wanna look at them: https://twitter.com/redsox4evur_os/s...015913989?s=20

So this brings me to another thought about the HOF. It's not necessary to remove or increase the maximum numbers of votes a writer gets from 10. What happened is we just hit a little snag in the road where a few different things happened. Voters (new and old) and analysts view on how to look at player's career completely changed (aka raise of sabermetrics), we had a lot of good to great players from the hottest era in baseball all reach the ballot for the first time and there was a 5/6 year period where the BBWAA only inducted 1 or 2 guys or didn't induct anyone.

Definitely an interesting list....my personal opinion:

Definitely In:
Beltre
Beltran
Ichiro
Jeter
Utley

Solid Case:
Mauer
Holliday
Teixeira
Hudson

Definitely Not In:
Fielder
Howard
Martinez

Special Cases:
A-Rod--obviously as good a resume as you could ask for, but admitted to using steroids and had that full year suspension later....so I don't even know if letting other steroid era guys in really helps his case much with some of the bridges he burned

Ortiz--Definitely deserving looking at his stats even as a DH, but also has had rumors of PED use but nothing has really stuck. That didn't affect Piazza or Bagwell so it may not hurt Ortiz either

EDIT: I mis-remembered what Ortiz's ties to PED use were, that's why he's still in this "special case" class. I think he'll get in but maybe the writers don't thinks so. idk

Lee--I think you're spot on with the Johan comparison....great peak but may not have enough.

Wright--His peak is incredible but I just don't know if he's gonna have enough of the counting stats to get in at 3B which historically has been a tough position to get in

Tulo--to me he's similar to Nomar. A tremendous talent but missed out on some great seasons, so i'd say no. I think he is easily one of the most talented shortstops we've seen this decade but just couldn't stay on the field

Take this with a grain of salt....I didn't really look at how their stats compare to others guys who did or didn't get in, but this is what my gut says for those guys

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Definitely an interesting list....my personal opinion:

Definitely In:
Beltre
Beltran
Ichiro
Jeter
Utley

Solid Case:
Mauer
Holliday
Teixeira
Hudson

Definitely Not In:
Fielder
Howard
Martinez

Special Cases:
A-Rod--obviously as good a resume as you could ask for, but admitted to using steroids and had that full year suspension later....so I don't even know if letting other steroid era guys in really helps his case much with some of the bridges he burned

Ortiz--Definitely deserving looking at his stats even as a DH, but also admitted to using PEDs, but everyone liked him so it'll be interesting to see if he ever makes it in.

Lee--I think you're spot on with the Johan comparison....great peak but may not have enough.

Wright--His peak is incredible but I just don't know if he's gonna have enough of the counting stats to get in at 3B which historically has been a tough position to get in

Tulo--to me he's similar to Nomar. A tremendous talent but missed out on some great seasons, so i'd say no. I think he is easily one of the most talented shortstops we've seen this decade but just couldn't stay on the field

Take this with a grain of salt....I didn't really look at how their stats compare to others guys who did or didn't get in, but this is what my gut says for those guys

Again, please, where is this coming from? I'd love a concrete source.

Ortiz himself has said he's tested "hundreds of times" since testing started in 2003, and has NEVER had a positive result. So...

He said it best himself

"I don't think I can do anything. A noise comes out, and do you think I'm just going to sit down and believe what somebody I don't know comes off saying? That came out (in) 2009 about (what allegedly occurred in) 2003. (MLB) drug policies started in 2004. I never failed a test. I kept on banging. So, you know, the reality is that it's a noise that I think was more damaging [to some players' careers] than anything else, because a lot of guys that were pronounced [as having tested] positive for things or having been caught using things, their careers went away. Yet I am [here]. Let me tell you, there's not one player in baseball, not one player, that has been drug-tested more than David Ortiz. I guarantee you that. I never failed a test."

[CBoller1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Again, please, where is this coming from? I'd love a concrete source.

Ortiz himself has said he's tested "hundreds of times" since testing started in 2003, and has NEVER had a positive result. So...

He said it best himself

Hm. I must have just mis-remembered that whole situation. When that story that he failed a test in '03 came out I must have just filed it into the "another superstar is a cheater" portion of my memory. For some reason I thought he admitted to something but I guess that wasn't the case.

My humble opinion (which admittedly isn't worth much): his career path and sustained success into his late 30's combined with a rumor of PED use is suspicious but probably not anything that would affect his HOF chances. We've seen plenty of late bloomers, and DH makes it easier to have success late into your career, plus the rumors that don't stick didn't affect the likes of Piazza and Bagwell

EDIT: I also edited my original post

[canes21]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

With the controversy around Ortiz, we'll never know if his name being leaked during that test means he did fail the test or not. I've never really been able to decide one way or the other. I don't care for him as a player, but I would say the lack of concrete evidence he ever took roids will make him a for sure case.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Again, please, where is this coming from? I'd love a concrete source.



Ortiz himself has said he's tested "hundreds of times" since testing started in 2003, and has NEVER had a positive result. So...



He said it best himself

It comes from the fact that his name was listed in that 2009 report as a player who failed the 2003 screening test. That’s all there ever has been; I think given players who’s names were actually in the Mitchell Report (Pudge Rodriguez) have made the HOF, Ortiz will have zero issues getting in.


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[TripleCrown9]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It comes from the fact that his name was listed in that 2009 report as a player who failed the 2003 screening test. That’s all there ever has been; I think given players who’s names were actually in the Mitchell Report (Pudge Rodriguez) have made the HOF, Ortiz will have zero issues getting in.


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Right, but was he actually in the report? Has anyone seen the list of players tested? Because it was supposed to be anonymous.

"What was the reason for them to come out with something like that? The only thing that I can think of, to be honest with you, a lot of big guys from the Yankees were being caught. And no one from Boston ... This was just something that leaked out of New York and they had zero explanation about it ... Everybody who got caught, all of them were told what they bought, what they used, everything. But David Ortiz. Nobody came to me after, nobody came to me before. Nobody came to me ever, to tell me that I tested positive for any kind of steroids."

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Right, but was he actually in the report? Has anyone seen the list of players tested? Because it was supposed to be anonymous.

The New York Times released the list, but Ortiz can't confirm/deny if he was actually on the list since the players weren't told at the time they had failed. Here's a link: https://www.si.com/mlb/2009/07/30/ortiz-steroids

Do I think Ortiz probably did PEDs at some point? Yes, probably so, but opinion isn't what matters. Until there is absolute proof that he did, it will not keep him out of the HOF. I should add that he is universally liked and has always been a good interview; if he had been Albert Belle/Barry Bonds/Manny Ramirez/Roger Clemens personality, the PEDs might be a bigger issue.

[l3ulvl]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Speaking of monumental collapses...

Cliff Lee. Look up his 08-13 run (including the 2 WS runs). If you told me in 2013 he wouldn't make the HOF, I would get you contained in an insane asylum. He's gonna end up like Johan. Fantastic pitcher whose career was hurt by injury. And should get debated like Edgar and Raines did, like Andruw and Jones will in the next few years but won't. Then will fall off in like 2 years.

Also it's going to be interesting to see exactly how the benchmarks change after Kershaw, Verlander and Scherzer all get in.

Cliff Lee is a great example of a guy who went nuts in his prime years, he was an absolute monster... briefly, and in the playoffs he was terrifying. When he hit his peak he was Pedro level amazing, but it feels in hindsight it was only a year or two. I don't know how to deal with that, but ultimately it's probably not enough. That run he had though, damn

[Caulfield]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'd actually rank Cliff Lee alongside, maybe even ahead of, Catfish Hunter & Jack Morris. I just dont see him lasting more than 3 or 4 years on the ballot before he falls off though.

[Majingir]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

CC final regular season game in NY today.

They're doing a tribute for him.

He was a Yankee for more years and games, but better career in Cleveland and won Cy Young. Which hat does he go in with?