Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[reyes the roof]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

A lot of people seem to think that PEDs automatically will make you a better hitter but that’s not true. Look at all the guys in the minors who get popped for PEDs their stats were horrible. PEDs don’t give you better plate discipline. Look at Jose Canseco and his brother Ozzie both have the same genetics both took roids but only Jose put up those big numbers.

At most I think PEDs helped them recover faster and stay on the field longer.

I think Canseco has said before he would have been a career minor leaguer without PEDs

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think Canseco has said before he would have been a career minor leaguer without PEDs

I don't even believe that. Canseco was talented His 40/40 season was legit. But still **** that guy.

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[Caulfield]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I don't even believe that. Canseco was talented His 40/40 season was legit. But still **** that guy.

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his 1988 season? 3 years after his claims of introducing steroids to the big leages in 1985?

[Caulfield]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Even if PEDs were out of the equation, wasn't Bonds going to have a hard time getting votes anyways because of how he treated the media throughout his career? I'm not saying that's a valid reason for keeping someone out of the hall either, but pissing off the voters will do you no favors.

I dunno, Teddy Ballgame had a contentious relationship with the media and even Red Sox fans and he did okay. it was once said of Williams when his name was announced at games it was like the autumn wind moaning through an apple orchard

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Good point about the breakdown of the writers association. Time for some young blood. Looks like a GOP convention at times.


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Well, not to get too political lol but the venn diagram of baseball media and those attending that convention vaguely resembles the distance between the left and right fake breasts of a busted 90s pornstar.

[zello144]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think Canseco has said before he would have been a career minor leaguer without PEDs

What about his twin brother? He also took PEDs but he ended up being terrible.

[dubcity]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Canseco and McGwire were both talented without steroids. Canseco really has zero shame, which often results in some pretty solid entertainment, but also him making a mockery of everything (including himself).

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

For Canseco and McGwire, might I suggest the historical documentary "The Unauthorized Bash Brothers Experience"

[Majingir]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Absolutely. There's fault on all sides, and there are doubtless many people in Cooperstown, the BBWAA, and MLB itself who are frustrated by the minority dragging everybody's reputation in the mud. To me, the biggest problems are:



1. The BBWAA is too loose when it comes to eligible voters. 2/3 voted for Bonds and Clemens - a large majority of full-time baseball writers (including almost all - Tom Verducci excepted - of the national writers, ESPN/Athletic types, that baseball fans will have heard of) have made their peace with the steroid users (or never cared in the first place). In my observation, the "general sports columnists" at local newspapers who are in their 60s/70s, specialize in lazy takes, and haven't covered MLB full-time since the 80s/90s (if ever) comprise the majority of non-voters and "look at me" contrarians. Why the eff does a gasbag like the Toronto Sun's Steve Simmons have a BBHOF vote? Get rid of the dead wood.



2. It shouldn't be up to the writers (or the players in the Veterans Committee) to determine whether PED use is disqualifying, especially since most usage was so widespread and few players were "officially" caught. That's just MLB passing the buck. Say what you want about the rightness/wrongness of Pete Rose's and Joe Jackson's lifetime bans, but at the very least MLB is setting the rules there - they took it out of the writers' hands. MLB should come out and say, "Judge these players by on-field performance (relative to their peers) only" or disqualify them from Hall consideration. MLB should be the ones taking responsibility and making these calls.



3. Where I will blame the Hall of Fame itself is a.) arbitrarily reducing eligibility from 15 to 10 years, and b.) limiting the writers to voting for 10 players. People's perspectives change over time, and a large chunk of writers have reconsidered over the years. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, et al. deserve the same consideration as past players received. If there are 11 or 15 players you believe are Hall-worthy, you should be able to vote for them. Plus both policies punish borderline "clean" candidates who have the chance to be re-evaluated over the years.



I also believe voters shouldn't be allowed to be anonymous, and should be required to justify in writing who they did or didn't vote for - though they should have the option of releasing their ballot before or after the votes are tallied (and nobody should be harassed online, either).



It's a fixable situation, if all sides really want to take responsibility and fix it.

There for sure needs to be changes.

Why not even make it like ASG voting. The BBWAA counts as 50% of the vote while the veterans committee is the other 50%. The veterans committee only votes on guys with over 50% of the writers votes.

And eligibility for the writers needs to be changed. At this point, it should only include active full time writers. Once you're no longer part of it, you bow out, and you can also be removed if you dont vote for a certain percentage of guys who've been elected. If 10 guys get in over a 5 year span, and only 5 of those guys have ever been on your ballot, clearly you have some issue.

[jasontoddwhitt]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

What about his twin brother? He also took PEDs but he ended up being terrible.

Yeah, Ozzie was terrible. Had a cup of coffee with the A's and a couple of cups of coffee with the Cardinals.

His career minor league slashes were .241/.340/.445 over 11 seasons.

[Majingir]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Yeah, Ozzie was terrible. Had a cup of coffee with the A's and a couple of cups of coffee with the Cardinals.



His career minor league slashes were .241/.340/.445 over 11 seasons.

But that's the thing about PEDs, they dont make you great, they just help you to be better.

Let's think of it like a video game. It's like a stat boost. Let's pretend PEDs was like a +10 to your stats. An 80 overall player becomes a 90, but similarly, a 50 overall player becomes a 60.

[zello144]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I still wish Barry Bonds was able to play 1 or two more seasons. He was trying to way back in 2008 and 2009 but he was blackballed and no one would sign him.

[l3ulvl]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I didn't realize when I was a kid the Hof players got voted in by such a sanctimonious bitchy group of writers.

Don't really care about this sham of a hall anymore except for the players. Because it's such an honor for them and little bitches that can't use common sense somehow get a vote.

Anyways congrats to Papi. Maybe the best DH ever. Bonds and Clemens should be easy 1st ballot choices. But whatever. They are in my book.



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That's a life lesson in general, as a kid, you don't realize adults are just old kids

[CBoller1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

But that's the thing about PEDs, they dont make you great, they just help you to be better.

Let's think of it like a video game. It's like a stat boost. Let's pretend PEDs was like a +10 to your stats. An 80 overall player becomes a 90, but similarly, a 50 overall player becomes a 60.

Yeah I think Bonds putting up impossible numbers in his late 30's shows how powerful PEDs can be. I mean even in this Juiced-ball/3-true-outcomes era we are in we are in we haven't seen any hitter sniff the On-base/Power combination that Bonds put up in his ages 36-40 years. Heck we have hardly even seen any hitter come close to just one of those facets let alone both. Having a 2nd Hall-of-Fame level peak at that age is just bonkers.

I do think it would behoove Bonds/Clemens and other PED suspected guys to be a bit more honest about steroid use. I think most of the fans with pitchforks have moved on. It would just be refreshing to here some of them take a little bit of personal responsibility for their decisions. I think there is a sweet spot between Jose Canseco's "tell all" style to sell books and A-Rod's carefully crafted apologies for his "mistakes" in general.

Still, those guys should be in the Hall. Baseball writers are a joke. The ones who didn't vote for anyone this year are especially bad and should be removed from the process altogether.

For Canseco and McGwire, might I suggest the historical documentary "The Unauthorized Bash Brothers Experience"

A fantastic watch. Very educational.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I still wish Barry Bonds was able to play 1 or two more seasons. He was trying to way back in 2008 and 2009 but he was blackballed and no one would sign him.

This was interesting.

Part of me is surprised he didn't win his collusion case, it was clear he could easily be an 1.000 OPS player.

Part of me knows no team wanted to deal with him and whatever he did to a clubhouse (allegedly).

There's stories even about his stint as Marlins hitting coach that claims he was terrible and aloof.