Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

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  • Sportsforever
    NL MVP
    • Mar 2005
    • 20368

    #2071
    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

    Originally posted by Speedy
    Idk. Ozzie's bat was meager even for a SS.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app
    Sure, but Ozzie is considered the "best glove" ever at his position. Plus, he did become at least a league average hitter late in his career. You could argue he was the best player in the NL in 1987 (maybe Tony Gwynn/Eric Davis)...I'm not sure there was ever a year you could make that claim for Andruw.

    The argument that most make is that Andruw was NOT the best defensive player at his position (unlike Brooks Robinson/Ozzie) and since he didn't hit enough, he shouldn't be in. I don't agree; I'm simply relaying the arguments I've read against his enshrinement.
    "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

    Comment

    • Madden08PCgmr
      MVP
      • Feb 2017
      • 2441

      #2072
      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

      Originally posted by Sportsforever
      Sure, but Ozzie is considered the "best glove" ever at his position. Plus, he did become at least a league average hitter late in his career. You could argue he was the best player in the NL in 1987 (maybe Tony Gwynn/Eric Davis)...I'm not sure there was ever a year you could make that claim for Andruw.

      The argument that most make is that Andruw was NOT the best defensive player at his position (unlike Brooks Robinson/Ozzie) and since he didn't hit enough, he shouldn't be in. I don't agree; I'm simply relaying the arguments I've read against his enshrinement.
      10x Gold Glover... 10 consecutive.

      Other than Junior, I can't name another OF who can make that claim.
      You want free speech?
      Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.

      Comment

      • Sportsforever
        NL MVP
        • Mar 2005
        • 20368

        #2073
        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

        Originally posted by Madden08PCgmr
        10x Gold Glover... 10 consecutive.

        Other than Junior, I can't name another OF who can make that claim.
        Some guy named Mays won 12 GG in a row in CF...

        Also, Clemente won 12 in a row in RF.
        "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

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        • rdnk
          All Star
          • Feb 2009
          • 5730

          #2074
          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

          From my vantage point, I think Andruw Jones is not in because he turned to crap once he turned 31 years old.
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          • Sportsforever
            NL MVP
            • Mar 2005
            • 20368

            #2075
            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

            Originally posted by rdnk
            From my vantage point, I think Andruw Jones is not in because he turned to crap once he turned 31 years old.


            True, but he also started playing at 19 and from age 20-30 was playing close to 180 games/year including Spring Training/Postseason games. He put a lot of miles on those tires...I think you saw the same with Griffey who started breaking down in his early 30s as well.


            Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
            "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

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            • Speedy
              #Ace
              • Apr 2008
              • 16143

              #2076
              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

              Originally posted by rdnk
              From my vantage point, I think Andruw Jones is not in because he turned to crap once he turned 31 years old.
              I'm waiting for Blzer to come in with a Barry Bonds post surrounding post 31-years old performance.
              Originally posted by Gibson88
              Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
              It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

              Comment

              • zello144
                MVP
                • Jul 2013
                • 2183

                #2077
                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                Manny Ramirez belongs in the hall of fame PEDs or not.

                Comment

                • TripleCrown9
                  Keep the Faith
                  • May 2010
                  • 23705

                  #2078
                  Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                  Plug in Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens, and you'd still be correct.
                  Boston Red Sox
                  1903 1912 1915 1916 1918 2004 2007 2013 2018
                  9 4 1 8 27 6 14 45 26 34

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                  • rdnk
                    All Star
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 5730

                    #2079
                    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                    Originally posted by Sportsforever
                    True, but he also started playing at 19 and from age 20-30 was playing close to 180 games/year including Spring Training/Postseason games. He put a lot of miles on those tires...I think you saw the same with Griffey who started breaking down in his early 30s as well.
                    No doubt Jones had a lot of tread on the tires for a 31 old. He went from being a big signing with the Dodgers to being bought out and ending up as a bench guy all in the span of one season. Griffey did fall off once joining the Reds, but it wasn't quite the meteoric fall from grace that Jones had. Jones didn't quite have the peak that Griffey did either.
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                    • Sportsforever
                      NL MVP
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 20368

                      #2080
                      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                      Originally posted by rdnk
                      Jones didn't quite have the peak that Griffey did either.
                      True, but not many have...no shame in not having quite the peak of an inner circle HOFr. I think few people realize that from 1997-2003 Andruw Jones was #3 in all of baseball in WAR...behind Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez. That's 7 years of HOF level performance.
                      "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

                      Comment

                      • rdnk
                        All Star
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 5730

                        #2081
                        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                        Originally posted by Sportsforever
                        True, but not many have...no shame in not having quite the peak of an inner circle HOFr. I think few people realize that from 1997-2003 Andruw Jones was #3 in all of baseball in WAR...behind Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez. That's 7 years of HOF level performance.
                        No doubt he has the HOF level peak. I was just throwing out justification of why he hasn't cracked 20% of the vote in previous years. I hope he does get more love in the coming ballots.
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                        • Chip Douglass
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Dec 2005
                          • 12256

                          #2082
                          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                          I remember posting one of those WAR graphs a few years ago showing Jones basically keeping pace with Bonds, Griffey, and Mays through the first decade of his career before falling off a cliff. Part of this is because Jones wasn't an elite hitter unlike the other 3 guys (never posted a single-season OPS+ higher than 136 in his career) and most of his value was tied up in his fielding, which peaks earlier than hitting, along with his reported poor work ethic.

                          I think the Griffey comp is revealing because he broke down early like Jones and got into the HOF based on a decade of elite performance, which is pretty much the Jones HOF case. Doesn't seem right that Griffey was an almost unanimous selection while Jones is struggling to get votes.
                          I write things on the Internet.

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                          • Madden08PCgmr
                            MVP
                            • Feb 2017
                            • 2441

                            #2083
                            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                            Originally posted by Chip Douglass
                            I think the Griffey comp is revealing because he broke down early like Jones and got into the HOF based on a decade of elite performance, which is pretty much the Jones HOF case. Doesn't seem right that Griffey was an almost unanimous selection while Jones is struggling to get votes.
                            Junior wasn't just elite in Seattle, he was making a case as the best player ever.

                            Griffey won an MVP award (1997), top 5 5 times. Jones never won an MVP award, was runner up in 2005, never top 5 in any other season.

                            61 WAR for Jones
                            70.7 WAR for Junior.. missed a season worth of games with a broken wrist in '95 and the strike in '94

                            10 Gold Gloves for each in 11 seasons

                            .. I would vote for Jones. Best glove I've seen in CF. Not crazy about the Junior comparison though.

                            And however much Junior fell off, he retired as 1 of only 5 players in history to hit 600 HRs.
                            Last edited by Madden08PCgmr; 01-13-2021, 05:42 PM.
                            You want free speech?
                            Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.

                            Comment

                            • DrJones
                              All Star
                              • Mar 2003
                              • 9109

                              #2084
                              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                              Hall of Fame's gonna be pretty lacklustre the next few years.

                              2021: Nobody
                              2022: Big Papi
                              2023: Nobody (probably Beltran, but not on 1st ballot)
                              2024: Beltre (maybe Mauer, but not on 1st ballot)
                              2025: Ichiro

                              Which of the sadsack hangers-on squeeze in during this time? Rolen? The domestic violence allegations seem to have soured Vizquel's already iffy candidacy.
                              Originally posted by Thrash13
                              Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
                              Originally posted by slickdtc
                              DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
                              Originally posted by Kipnis22
                              yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

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                              • Madden08PCgmr
                                MVP
                                • Feb 2017
                                • 2441

                                #2085
                                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                                Originally posted by DrJones
                                The domestic violence allegations seem to have soured Vizquel's already iffy candidacy.
                                Won't deny I am slightly biased, being a Seattleite.

                                I don't think Vizquel is iffy at all. Best fielder I've ever seen. (Ozzie was slightly before my time)

                                Pretty pathetic move by the writers, IMO. He looked like he was on the path to election last year. Vizquel hasn't been convicted. What if this is just a money grab by his ex? What if charges are dropped, or some kind of settlement it reached, meaning he will never have been convicted of any crime?

                                Are we really going to keep players out beacuse they are/were bad people? (looks like we're headed that direction..) Then we better toss out previous offenders. Starting with the racists. There is nothing more disgusting than that.. how many members will that leave us with? They'll have to close the museum.
                                You want free speech?
                                Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.

                                Comment

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