Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Martinez had better discipline than Ortiz (by a bit).

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Here are a couple of names no longer on the BBWAA ballot that I don't think have been discussed much in this thread, but I'm intrigued by them. And here's a thought exercise, try not to look at WAR (at least in forming an initial opinion) and see what you think..

David Justice only got 0.2% in his only year of eligibility on the ballot in 2008

Juan Gonzalez got only 4% in 2012 (his 2nd year of eligibility)

I'd be more inclined to enshrine Juan-Gone, but my main contention is these guys probably should've gotten a longer look on the ballot before getting dropped. Any opinions?

On a similar note, was browsing some B-Ref as I tend to do (lol) and was reminded of how lethal Darryl Strawberry was until the age of 30. If he could've laid off the coke until 35, I think he'd have been a lock. But he just got 1.2% in 2005. John Olerud is another guy that was jobbed imo (0.7% in 2011, seriously that's it?). Will Clark too (4.4% in 2006).

Again, not saying any of these guys should be in, but I was surprised that almost all only spent a single year on the ballot.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

None of those guys cut it for me, either.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

None of those guys cut it for me, either.

I think a decent case could be made for Olerud. With guys with Olerud, Lofton, Berkman, Helton, etc., it pretty much comes down to whether or not you believe in an exclusive HOF or an inclusive one.

Justice and Gonzalez didn't hang around long enough or have the peak necessary to overcome that lack of longevity.

Somewhat surprised Gonzalez has already fallen off the ballot. I assumed his 434 HRs, 2 MVPs**, 4 top 5 MVP finishes, and 6 Silver Sluggers would allow him to hang on the ballot a few more years.

**Both were among the least deserved in baseball history, particularly his 1996 MVP.

[ubernoob]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I would say, without looking at numbers (which I will do after this post because... YAY BASEBALL NUMBERS) that none of them make it for me.

They fall squarely in between the "Average Everyday Players" and "HOF Caliber Players". I'd love to have them on a team, as they were above average... Just not HOF caliber to me. I wouldn't take it as a sign of disrespect that they fell off so the ballots so fast - just that their careers weren't HOF worthy.

[1stpitchhacker]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Roy Oswalt

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Roy Oswalt

No doubt, not a hall of famer.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Justice - Hall of Very Good. Not too close to the HOF.

Gonzalez - Meh. Not a HOFer. Good though.

Olerud - Painful and ridiculous that he's not in. Has all the numbers for it. Plus, he fielded with a helmet. That's just kind of awesome.

Strawberry - Good before falling off. Not a HOFer.

Oswalt - Very close, and I like him, but hall of very good. Needed to be more effective for a few more years imo.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think Kenny Lofton gets overlooked...he would obviously not be the best CF in the HOF, but he would be far from the worst IMO.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think Kenny Lofton gets overlooked...he would obviously not be the best CF in the HOF, but he would be far from the worst IMO.

Agreed. .372 OBP, 622 SB, above average D at a premium defensive position. IMO he's a guy who should have 20-30% of the vote right now, someone for voters to chew on for a few years. Not sure he deserves to make it, but he certainly deserved more than 3% of the vote and being dropped off the ballot.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I would say a good candidate would be around 60, not a borderline one.

I guess this is what JAWS is for.

Most of the players in this thread labeled "borderline" are somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 WAR, give or take a few wins in either direction.

<iframe src="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe.aspx?config=0&static=628407&type=graphs w&num=2&h=450&w=450&players=455,432,246,1002318,29 3,1093,1013157,548,1153" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" height="450" width = "450" style="border:1px solid black;"></iframe><br /><span style="font-size:9pt;">Source: <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=455,432,246,1002318,293,1093, 1013157,548,1153&wg=2">FanGraphs</a> -- <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=246&position=OF">Kenny Lofton</a>, <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=293&position=OF">Fred McGriff</a>, <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=432&position=OF">Todd Helton</a></span>

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Here's an interesting name that hasn't been thrown out yet: Bobby Grich.

Fell off the ballot in his first year of eligibility with 2.6% of the vote in 1992.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Here's an interesting name that hasn't been thrown out yet: Bobby Grich.

Fell off the ballot in his first year of eligibility with 2.6% of the vote in 1992.

Highly underrated. Played GREAT defense, always drew a lot of walks, and had some decent pop. He played a long time, but I think he had a few things working against him:

1) The walk was still undervalued when he played.

2) He played in an era with Joe Morgan.

3) He played in California and Baltimore.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Here's an interesting name that hasn't been thrown out yet: Bobby Grich.

Fell off the ballot in his first year of eligibility with 2.6% of the vote in 1992.

Should've got more than 2.6% (like some of the guys I mentioned up above), but I'd tend toward 'no'. WAR and JAWS like him, however. The JAWS method puts him 7th all time at 2B (ahead of Sandberg and Frankie Frisch which SERIOUSLY puts the JAWS method on shaky ground here imo), but his counting stats are not there < 2000 hits, ~ 100 SB, < 900 RBI, < 250 HR.

His WAR also got a sizable contribution from defense, and he was a bit before my time, so I'm not sure how well his defense is represented with shaky defensive metrics making up such a large chunk of his case.

Something to chew on (comparables):


1. Toby Harrah (908)
2. Jay Bell (894)
3. Bret Boone (892)
4. Sal Bando (879)
5. Travis Fryman (871)
6. Ray Durham (869)
7. Chet Lemon (854)
8. Jim Fregosi (850)
9. Joe Gordon (850) *
10. Johnny Callison (848)


Can't say I'm an expert at the method used for BR similarity scores like these, but if you only have 1 HoF comparable out of 10, and he's further down the list, and not an inner-circle guy, then that's not very positive for his case.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Roy Oswalt is borderline for me. He's had a great career but not HOF worthy and not outstanding numbers. Very very solid numbers but I would put him in the Hall of Very Good.

At the same time, I wouldn't be shocked if he got in.