Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Going back a couple of posts, I really believe that the first PED user to get in will be Barry Bonds. If the Voters attempt to judge him only on his stats before 1999 (The year he supposedly starting using PED's) His statline looks like

403 Doubles
411 Home Runs
445 Stolen Bases
1216 RBI's
1357 Walks
.290 Batting Average
.411 OBP

3 MVP Awards
8 Gold Gloves
7 Silver Sluggers

That's one hell of a resume.

Not to mention the fact that even if you do divide Bonds' career into "clean" and "dirty" and set the line at 1999, you'd probably have to consider that he would've continued to produce at a fairly high level for a few years after 1999 even if he hadn't juiced. In other words, not taking his post-1999 stats at face value is probably prudent, but eliminating them altogether is probably too narrow-minded. In that vein, his "true" stat line lies somewhere in-between his career up to 1999 and his career through 2007.

[cshaughns10]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

John Smoltz?

He should get in on the first ballot. 200+ wins and 150+ saves is just a huge feat for a pitcher.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Smoltz is a yes for sure...how about Alfonso Soriano?

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Smoltz is a yes for sure...how about Alfonso Soriano?

If he would have stayed at second.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Smoltz is a yes for sure...how about Alfonso Soriano?

28.6 career WAR = not even close. Off the ballot after the first year.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Smoltz is a yes for sure...how about Alfonso Soriano?

Depends on how long he can keep his 4.5 RBI/game pace going for.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Smoltz is a yes for sure...how about Alfonso Soriano?

He's put up some pretty impressive counting numbers and is one of the few members in the 40/40 club. 2000+ hits, should easily get 400+ HRs, and has a decent chance at 300+ SBs.

I'm not a fan of his strikeouts and fairly "average" average. His defense certainly doesn't help his cause either.

Great career. I don't think he is one ballot and done, even though his WAR is low compared to other HOFers. I think he's actually pretty borderline, but more on the 'no' side.

[jth1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Soriano is one of those guys who you look at his overall numbers, and say "Wow, what a great career numbers, 2000+ hits, 400+ doubles, 400+ homeruns, 300+ steals"
And then you realize he hardly ever walked, struck out a ton, and only once did he ever have a OPS over .900.
Was never a decent fielder.

Kind of like Juan Gonzalez in a way. Had tremendous numbers, but overall just a stat accumulator given a lot of RBI opportunities and fizzled out when he turned 30. Still can't believe he won those 2 MVP awards.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Soriano is one of those guys who you look at his overall numbers, and say "Wow, what a great career numbers, 2000+ hits, 400+ doubles, 400+ homeruns, 300+ steals"
And then you realize he hardly ever walked, struck out a ton, and only once did he ever have a OPS over .900.
Was never a decent fielder.

Kind of like Juan Gonzalez in a way. Had tremendous numbers, but overall just a stat accumulator given a lot of RBI opportunities and fizzled out when he turned 30. Still can't believe he won those 2 MVP awards.

Yeah, some of the things Soriano has done in his career are very impressive and I think his numbers will get some consideration. Especially considering he put up those numbers without being linked to PED use and many names that will be on the ballot with him will be linked.

In the end I don't think he makes the cut. His strikeouts, low OBP/average, and sketchy fielding will probably keep him out.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Do you guys think C.C. Sabathia and Cliff Lee will get in?

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Do you guys think C.C. Sabathia and Cliff Lee will get in?

Sabathia has a very good chance, Lee not so much. They'll both probably pitch at least five more years though.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

OK, let's try something a little different (don't look it up!)

Mystery Player X is currently not in the Hall of Fame, but has been retired for 5 or more years.

• Mystery player X played 17 years (with only 14 really being full seasons).

• Mystery Player X had 1776 hits (c'mon what could be more American than that!) and 339 of those were HRs to go with 270 doubles.

• Mystery Player X had a career triple slash of .266/.361/.462 for a career .822 OPS.

• Mystery Player X hit 30+ HRs 4 times and drove in 100+ 3 times.

• Mystery Player X won 1 MVP and came in the top 2 in MVP voting in another year and the top 3 in MVP voting in a 3rd year. He also led MLB in slugging % in a year other than any of those seasons.

• Mystery Player X had a career OPS+ of 134, with best years of 176, 163, 160, 158, 154, and 138, with 5 other years of > 120.

• Mystery Player X drove in 1187 runs, scored 889 runs, and walked 1001 times.

• Mystery Player X played in 4 World Series, with his team winning 2.

• Mystery Player X is...clutch? 55th all-time in WPA with 40.3 wins added.

OK, so not knowing his name or position, would you say this Mystery Player X is...

-a 1st ballot HoF lock
-a likely HoFer that will take some time to get in
-a borderline, 50/50 guy with better luck with the veteran's committee
-a fringe candidate (might sniff 5% in his 1st year of eligibility)
-a lock to be off the ballot after the 1st year

??

[24]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

OK, let's try something a little different (don't look it up!)

Mystery Player X is currently not in the Hall of Fame, but has been retired for 5 or more years.

• Mystery player X played 17 years (with only 14 really being full seasons).

• Mystery Player X had 1776 hits (c'mon what could be more American than that!) and 339 of those were HRs to go with 270 doubles.

• Mystery Player X had a career triple slash of .266/.361/.462 for a career .822 OPS.

• Mystery Player X hit 30+ HRs 4 times and drove in 100+ 3 times.

• Mystery Player X won 1 MVP and came in the top 2 in MVP voting in another year and the top 3 in MVP voting in a 3rd year. He also led MLB in slugging % in a year other than any of those seasons.

• Mystery Player X had a career OPS+ of 134, with best years of 176, 163, 160, 158, 154, and 138, with 5 other years of > 120.

• Mystery Player X drove in 1187 runs, scored 889 runs, and walked 1001 times.

• Mystery Player X played in 4 World Series, with his team winning 2.

• Mystery Player X is...clutch? 55th all-time in WPA with 40.3 wins added.

OK, so not knowing his name or position, would you say this Mystery Player X is...

-a 1st ballot HoF lock
-a likely HoFer that will take some time to get in
-a borderline, 50/50 guy with better luck with the veteran's committee
-a fringe candidate (might sniff 5% in his 1st year of eligibility)
-a lock to be off the ballot after the 1st year

??

off the Ballot. Didn't put up enough quality season's, has a low triple slash and doesn't even have 2000 hits.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

off the Ballot. Didn't put up enough quality season's, has a low triple slash and doesn't even have 2000 hits.

Food for thought...

HoFers with fewer hits than Mystery Player X: Ralph Kiner and Mickey Cochrane (not including guys who had short careers due to segregation: Roy Campanella, Jackie Robinson or guys who lost time to WWII: Hank Greenberg)

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

What did player x do defensively?