The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

[Sportsforever]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Didn't see this mentioned anywhere else, but apparently the 'list' of Biogenesis clients didn't just stop with baseball players. The reports say more than 5 NBA players were mentioned in addition to NCAA athletes, professional tennis players, and MMA fighters.

I know everyone was aware that baseball isn't the only one with this problem...lets see if the media lets these other sports just skate like they have so far.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Didn't see this mentioned anywhere else, but apparently the 'list' of Biogenesis clients didn't just stop with baseball players. The reports say more than 5 NBA players were mentioned in addition to NCAA athletes, professional tennis players, and MMA fighters.

I know everyone was aware that baseball isn't the only one with this problem...lets see if the media lets these other sports just skate like they have so far.

I'm sure they'll be very interested in the NCAA athletes. One question comes to mind. Where are these guys coming up with the money to be on a professional athlete regimen of drugs? The schools they played for better hope "rich parents".

[Psyblast]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I'm sure they'll be very interested in the NCAA athletes. One question comes to mind. Where are these guys coming up with the money to be on a professional athlete regimen of drugs? The schools they played for better hope "rich parents".

[roadman]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

A quick interruption for Ryan Braun news.

He released a statement through the Brewers stating he will talk when he's able to, legally, he can't say anything until MLB finishes the investigation with him.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9509755/ryan-braun-milwaukee-brewers-says-speak-able-to

[C the Lyte]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Ha ha! I hear what you're saying though, and I agree... and I think that's C the Lyte's problem too (correct me if I'm wrong).

But lets look at the sport of boxing. By nature you're putting your life at risk... and at best your way of life. If boxing or MMA is too extreme, we can just look at football. You're almost willingly signing up for brain damage or having trouble walking later in life. Individuals choose whether or not it's for them or not. Baseball is actually unique in that you don't have to be a HR hitter or power pitcher to not only be successful enough to have a solid professional career but even be a HOFer. So unlike the other sports I mentioned, even if it becomes necessary to take PEDs to put up 30 hrs (it's not like that btw) a year, you don't have to put up 30 hrs a year to be successful. I don't think Jose Reyes is juicing. I doubt Greg Maddox was either. It's just like everything else with the "athletes aren't role models" speech. Teach kids to do right, don't make rules/laws that say society needs to decide how to put them on the straight and narrow.

Final point on the kids discussion, hydroxicut is a perfect example of what athletes take LEGALLY. Most supplements and other things like that require drinking a lot of water, if not a very strict diet and training program. Kids get their hands on these things and use them improperly, end up dead and then whatever they took gets banned. This happens A LOT. It's not the fault of the drug, it's the ease of misuse that makes it illegal. So these grown men with personal trainers who have been using things properly for years now have to stop for this reason. If they decide not to stop and get caught they are in the same group of players using illegal substances and labeled as cheaters. It doesn't make sense... there are still tons of products on the same level that are legal bc no kid has died taking it yet, and the players that were smart enough to switch to something on the same level aren't being hammered for enhancing their performance. We can't possibly regulate drug use like this in sports. I'm all for banning these substances to protect the kids. All I'm against is punishing the professionals beyond what the rules state when we know the rules are ONLY in place to protect the kids, not to protect the record books.



Touched on a bunch of that in the reply above. I could care less how these men damage their health. Other sports, by nature, are damaging to your health. I will say if that's your only beef I'm fine with that. But saying Bonds record shouldn't count, Arod/Braun should be kicked out of the league and anything else along those lines I completely disagree with.

I'm just interpretting your posts as "It's no big deal" and I know that's not what you are trying say. Whereas I feel it's a very big deal.

I think our disagreement stems from the very definition of Performance Enhancing Drugs. The fact that everything can be lumped into that one definition causes alot of confusion and disagreement. The dangers of Adderal (sp?) use are very minute compared to the dangers of steroid use. I, like you, could care less what these guys do to their own bodies. When they get caught, they need to be punished and punished severely, although not to the extent some are saying (lifetime bans, c'mon son). I do like the voided contract idea though.

However, kids see what these guys are doing and how they profit even when they get caught. I know I said parents should be role models, not athletes, but that's easier said than done. I learned my lesson from Canseco and Steve McNair (God rest his soul). Not only are kids seeing these guys cheat the game, they are seeing criminals profit. And these guys don't even get prosecuted. Add that to having to keep up with the guy juicing next to you, and it's just a continuous cycle. Sad really.

Will the game, or any game for that matter, be completely clean? Nope. I'd like it to, but don't expect it to.

[roadman]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I'm just interpretting your posts as "It's no big deal" and I know that's not what you are trying say. Whereas I feel it's a very big deal.

I think our disagreement stems from the very definition of Performance Enhancing Drugs. The fact that everything can be lumped into that one definition causes alot of confusion and disagreement. The dangers of Adderal (sp?) use are very minute compared to the dangers of steroid use. I, like you, could care less what these guys do to their own bodies. When they get caught, they need to be punished and punished severely, although not to the extent some are saying (lifetime bans, c'mon son). I do like the voided contract idea though.

However, kids see what these guys are doing and how they profit even when they get caught. I know I said parents should be role models, not athletes, but that's easier said than done. I learned my lesson from Canseco and Steve McNair (God rest his soul). Not only are kids seeing these guys cheat the game, they are seeing criminals profit. And these guys don't even get prosecuted. Add that to having to keep up with the guy juicing next to you, and it's just a continuous cycle. Sad really.

Will the game, or any game for that matter, be completely clean? Nope. I'd like it to, but don't expect it to.

Agree with most of this.

Parents should be the role models, but not much parents can do with peer pressure. If Johnny is doing it, why can't I? Or, c'mon Johnny, try these roids, they make you much stronger.

Plus, I wouldn't call Adderal a very minute danger.

Once addicted, elevated hearbeats and rapid breathing becomes common place. Once those systems ocurr, heart attacks and strokes are only a heart beat away.

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/amphetamine-health-risks.html

Because they are stimulants, amphetamines increase the heart rate and blood pressure. In a healthy person, this may not be particularly risky. Blood pressure and heart rate will return to normal when the drug is stopped. But in the person with a pre-existing heart problem, use of amphetamines can be serious or even fatal.

Amphetamine users are also increasing their risk of heart disease due to arterial blockage that restricts blood flow to the heart muscle or results in damaged or dead heart tissue. This damage outlives the drug use - meaning that if you stop using amphetamines, the damage is still done.

The tendency for amphetamines to create cerebrovascular problems is also well known. This means that amphetamines increase the risk of stroke. It also means that if a person using amphetamines has a stroke, there is a higher risk of death than usual. Here's another thing no one is going to tell you: if you mix your amphetamine use with alcohol, opioids or cocaine, you get a bigger punch of toxicity and damage from your amphetamines.

[roadman]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Rodgers comments on Braun.

Pretty hard hitting.

I was shocked, I really was, just like many of you were," Rodgers said in a jam-packed press gathering in front of his locker after the Packers' first training camp practice. "I was backing up a friend. He looked me in the eye on multiple occassions and repeatedly denied these allegations and said they were not true.

"So, it is disappointing, not only for myself as a friend, but for obviously Wisconsin sports fans, Brewer fans, really baseball fans. It doesn't feel great being lied to like that and I'm disappointed in the way it all went down."

Rodgers said he has talked to Braun since the Brewers outfielder was slapped with a 65-game suspension, all but admitting that he was guilty of taking PEDs. He said he wasn't sure whether they would continue their restaurant business dealings together.

"That's yet to be determined," Rodgers said. "I don't regret backing a friend up. Obviously in hindsight a more measured approach would obviously be a better course of action. I definitely believe in forgiveness and moving forward. He has a tough task in front of him moving forward with his career, on and off the field.

"As far as the business goes, right now I'm focused on football and I have people who can help me with those issues."

Asked if he still considered Braun a friend, Rodgers said:

"I was disappointed in the way it went down. ... I trusted him. That's the thing that probably hurts the most."

[slickdtc]

Damn right. Rodgers is more invested in this guy then most everyone, Braun's integrity is shot. I would definitely think twice about being in business with him. You've gotta believe that having your name attached to his is a bad idea at this point.

[wwharton]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

It's mostly the fact that it is an unnatural advantage, illegal, and a health risk that isn't necessary at all. The other sports, like you said, are dangerous by nature... 2 different things in my opinion.

One example that comes to mind is the Tour De France. That sport was/is probably the dirtiest sport and I think the general consensus from the riders was that it was basically impossible to win without taking some form of illegal PED. I would just hate for baseball to turn into a sport like that.

Harping on it being an "unnatural advantage" basically makes it seem like everyone else is just hitting the gym and running the stairs. EVERYBODY is taking SOMETHING. That's why the witch hunt bothers me so much.

The Tour De France isn't a good example bc just about everything can be controlled, just like the Olympic sports implied earlier (mainly track and field). Sports like baseball have a ton of variables and different ways someone can be successful. It is very possible for anyone to be a successful baseball player even if they are literally the only person in the sport not using PEDs. But even with that said, considering everyone is taking something the real issue is the legality of steroids specifically... and that other PEDs are also causing players to be vilified. Simply bc I write too much anyway, I'll say more than that in the reply below.

I'm just interpretting your posts as "It's no big deal" and I know that's not what you are trying say. Whereas I feel it's a very big deal.

I think our disagreement stems from the very definition of Performance Enhancing Drugs. The fact that everything can be lumped into that one definition causes alot of confusion and disagreement. The dangers of Adderal (sp?) use are very minute compared to the dangers of steroid use. I, like you, could care less what these guys do to their own bodies. When they get caught, they need to be punished and punished severely, although not to the extent some are saying (lifetime bans, c'mon son). I do like the voided contract idea though.

However, kids see what these guys are doing and how they profit even when they get caught. I know I said parents should be role models, not athletes, but that's easier said than done. I learned my lesson from Canseco and Steve McNair (God rest his soul). Not only are kids seeing these guys cheat the game, they are seeing criminals profit. And these guys don't even get prosecuted. Add that to having to keep up with the guy juicing next to you, and it's just a continuous cycle. Sad really.

Will the game, or any game for that matter, be completely clean? Nope. I'd like it to, but don't expect it to.

Who determines which PEDs cause what level of negative public perception? There was a time when nobody cared about steroids in baseball. Brady Anderson was a running joke... even in Baltimore. There was a time when people believed McGwire was just using hydroxicut and everyone was fine with it until it became illegal bc a kid died and then they tried to back track and throw Big Mac under the bus for using something that was considered legal. That's been the pattern with PEDs in baseball. It's a combination of a witch hunt and mob mentality, mostly guided by the media, who we know leads a story in the direction of ratings.

It's dangerous to say any drug isn't bad... especially when we're talking about being used by unsupervised kids. I keep coming back to hydroxicut bc that's the story I remember. There are others where kids take things that are legal, don't hydrate or mix them with other things and they end up dying. Usually that forces the FDA to make the drug illegal or force the company to change the ingredients so it's less effective. This is how the list of illegal substances constantly changes in the MLB. Unless we're going to close all the GNCs and Vitamin shops, or put an age limit on who can buy what, this will never stop.

I remember watching a documentary on PEDs (probably about a year ago) and there was an athlete that had a machine that mimics the the conditions of being a mile high, and using it helps his endurance. This is unnatural. It's performance enhancing. I'm almost certain it could potentially do damage to someone using it improperly (kids). Athletes are always going to look for a way to get an edge. We want them to look for the legal ways, but there really isn't as big of a difference between them and the illegal ways as many want to think.

And I think you know this but to be clear, I'm not saying I want everything to be legal or that I don't care. I think they should be punished for using things that are illegal... whether to MLB or to the USA. But players have been doing different things, legally and illegally to get an edge since the beginning of time. So whatever stats have been accumulated, awards won, games won, etc. shouldn't even be mentioned in these discussions. That's where I draw the line. That and the lengths some want to go to punish as if roids or PEDs in general would turn me or you into Barry Bonds. That's just not the case.

Damn right. Rodgers is more invested in this guy then most everyone, Braun's integrity is shot. I would definitely think twice about being in business with him. You've gotta believe that having your name attached to his is a bad idea at this point.

Sorry to single out this post slickdtc, but this is what I mean when I say people are asking for too much. What I relate to out of what Rodgers said is how upset I'd be that my friend lied to me, and even more so after going to the public lengths to defend his friend. But that's still his friend. This shouldn't have anything to do with them having a business together, and shouldn't have anything to do with any of us continuing to frequent a business owned by Braun. People lie all the time... they shouldn't be excommunicated for it.

[slickdtc]

Sorry to single out this post slickdtc, but this is what I mean when I say people are asking for too much. What I relate to out of what Rodgers said is how upset I'd be that my friend lied to me, and even more so after going to the public lengths to defend his friend. But that's still his friend. This shouldn't have anything to do with them having a business together, and shouldn't have anything to do with any of us continuing to frequent a business owned by Braun. People lie all the time... they shouldn't be excommunicated for it.

It would be wise for Rodgers to get out of it because that business is definitely going to suffer (to what extent I don't know) with Braun tied to it.

I wouldn't not eat/drink there, but there are people who would make that decision. Plus, fair or not, Rodgers will be connected to Braun, more then he already is after his public defense.

But otherwise, yeah, I think Rodgers gets it, he understands why Braun did this. And he's just pissed that his friend BS'ed him. I'm sure Rodgers knows some stuff from his time in NFL locker rooms, so I really don't think he's all that surprised someone got caught big time, but how it all went down.

[JBH3]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Fan's 'Fraud' jersey creates stir at Miller Park, really security, really?!

[19]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Fan's 'Fraud' jersey creates stir at Miller Park, really security, really?!

No reason at all to kick her out. SMH.

Someone needs to make a bunch of those shirts, and start passing them out outside the ballpark. Get as many people to wear them as possible, see what security does then.

[philliesfan136]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

The hammer's coming down:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/mlb_bans_in_ped_case_likely_to_drop_9vrYirxam2vt7mihs3UiKI

[Brandon13]

People lie all the time... they shouldn't be excommunicated for it.

I agree with that. My real problem with Braun - why his case is a bit different than others in my view - is that there was a malicious aspect to his lie. The collector screwed up, but he did not tamper with the sample. That was objectively clear at the time, and is especially so now in hindsight. It's also now pretty clear that Braun and his team purposely shifted the blame for his legitimate failing of the drug test off of the player and onto an individual Braun knew was innocent of the implication but who had mangled things just enough himself that combined with a near Oscar worthy performance from Braun and a strange/confusing exoneration, the explicit stating that evidence had been found pointing towards tampering by the collector may actually be enough to fool the public into believing Braun really was clean and innocent of the charge levied against him by MLB.

And he was largely succeeding in that, having swayed many into believing that maybe the collector really had maliciously framed Braun - all while Braun apparently continuing to use PEDs. Right? (I actually do not recall if we know that he continued using. If wrong, apologies.)

I don't feel this way about most others, but screw Ryan Braun. I don't think that **** he pulled is cool.

[wwharton]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I agree with that. My real problem with Braun - why his case is a bit different than others in my view - is that there was a malicious aspect to his lie. The collector screwed up, but he did not tamper with the sample. That was objectively clear at the time, and is especially so now in hindsight. It's also now pretty clear that Braun and his team purposely shifted the blame for his legitimate failing of the drug test off of the player and onto an individual Braun knew was innocent of the implication but who had mangled things just enough himself that combined with a near Oscar worthy performance from Braun and a strange/confusing exoneration, the explicit stating that evidence had been found pointing towards tampering by the collector may actually be enough to fool the public into believing Braun really was clean and innocent of the charge levied against him by MLB.

And he was largely succeeding in that, having swayed many into believing that maybe the collector really had maliciously framed Braun - all while Braun apparently continuing to use PEDs. Right? (I actually do not recall if we know that he continued using. If wrong, apologies.)

I don't feel this way about most others, but screw Ryan Braun. I don't think that **** he pulled is cool.

Yeah I agree with you 100% whether he continued using after that or not.