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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
Not going to lie, I have been in these forums pleading for this stuff for damn near 5 years.
The fact that it might actually come to fruition.
My body is ready.Cubs | Bulls | Dolphins | 'Noles
The artist formerly known as "13"
"Heroes get remembered, but legends never die..."
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
They wouldn't leave the shooter open if the offensive team has five shooters.
The key words are:
Previous success in the high pick and roll.
Bill Simmons.
It's pretty clear why it's happening in that specific possession.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk"It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace
"You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob NeyerComment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
Loved everything I saw and read in the blog, and Porter did NOT commit a 3 second violation,
count the Mississippi's. OG, that blog was a basketball junkies dream.
I've always found the coach ratings perplexing. The Cavs defensive efficiency has been lower ever since they replaced Blatt with Lue, and it hit rock bottom last season. Lue having an A in defense doesn't seem justifiable.
I was also wondering this, if Scott could answer. Would the extremely high IQ players have more active vision on defense, like constantly looking around?Last edited by antdoggydogg; 08-29-2017, 11:47 PM.Comment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
My first impression seeing those videos:
(1) "Angled / lateral position" - I wished the defensive player didn't have their backs turned to the post play. I wished they were positioned more at an angle. One arm at reach of their assigned perimeter man, and the other arm at reach of the post play.
(2) "Organized chaos" Some of the perimeter defense setup just seems a little bit too "perfect" so to speak. If you compare it to real NBA footage and even NBA2k14, the setup is a little bit more of an organized chaos if you will. It's more "random" rather than straight perfect looking arcs. Not sure if I'm describing it correctly.
(3) "Anticipation Sway" The other thing that I wish would be more prevalent would be the "sway" cheat back and forth towards the perimeter shooter and the post offensive player. Watch the video #2 below (spoiler tag) of how Durant and Draymond and Curry feet/body/arms kind of moves back and forth keeping their arms within reach of their perimeter shooter and the post player (Kevin Love). That "anticipation sway or motion."
NBA 2k18 defensive position stances; Position location are "too clean" so to speak
Backs are turned to the post play. Yes, I know they can probably still see with their peripheral vision of what's going on in the post, but it's at this angle (backs turned), your vision is semi compromised versus how the NBA and NBA2k14 is represented when defending perimeter shooters and the post simultaneously.
Video footage of screenshot #1 ( NBA2k18 )
Spoiler
Real NBA Warriors vs Cavaliers; defensive stances
Notice the defensive players' stance are similar to how NBA2k14 does it, one arm within reach of the perimeter shooter and one arm within reach of the post position.
Video footage of screenshot #2 ( NBA Finals Warriors vs Cavaliers )
Spoiler
NBA2k14 defensive stances - Notice how Curry specifically is defending the shooter in the first image below. Then take notice of how Klay and Iggy is defending the perimeter shooter while at the same time anticipating given help defense. Visually, it simply looks as if they're defending more area on the floor while in 2k18 having your back turned to the post makes it seem like they're having a more limited defensive approach.
Video footage of screenshot #3 ( NBA2k14 )
Spoiler
Last edited by strawberryshortcake; 08-30-2017, 01:23 AM.Comment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
Ish. Got the chills reading this. Had me rechecking the preorder early release date, as if I didn't already know it.
This sounds insane!Just cuz you pour syrup on ish....Comment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
I don't want to be excited but
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
Not mentioned in the blog but this is something we have and we can update. This is just a base "pistol" stance. It's also something I've seen hated in here as wellMy first impression seeing those videos:
(1) "Angled / lateral position" - I wished the defensive player didn't have their backs turned to the post play. I wished they were positioned more at an angle. One arm at reach of their assigned perimeter man, and the other arm at reach of the post play.
(2) "Organized chaos" Some of the perimeter defense setup just seems a little bit too "perfect" so to speak. If you compare it to real NBA footage and even NBA2k14, the setup is a little bit more of an organized chaos if you will. It's more "random" rather than straight perfect looking arcs. Not sure if I'm describing it correctly.
(3) "Anticipation Sway" The other thing that I wish would be more prevalent would be the "sway" cheat back and forth towards the perimeter shooter and the post offensive player. Watch the video #2 below (spoiler tag) of how Durant and Draymond and Curry feet/body/arms kind of moves back and forth keeping their arms within reach of their perimeter shooter and the post player (Kevin Love). That "anticipation sway or motion."
NBA 2k18 defensive position stances; Position location are "too clean" so to speak
Backs are turned to the post play. Yes, I know they can probably still see with their peripheral vision of what's going on in the post, but it's at this angle (backs turned), your vision is semi compromised versus how the NBA and NBA2k14 is represented when defending perimeter shooters and the post simultaneously.
Video footage of screenshot #1 ( NBA2k18 )
Spoiler
Real NBA Warriors vs Cavaliers; defensive stances
Notice the defensive players' stance are similar to how NBA2k14 does it, one arm within reach of the perimeter shooter and one arm within reach of the post position.
Video footage of screenshot #2 ( NBA Finals Warriors vs Cavaliers )
Spoiler
NBA2k14 defensive stances - Notice how Curry specifically is defending the shooter in the first image below. Then take notice of how Klay and Iggy is defending the perimeter shooter while at the same time anticipating given help defense. Visually, it simply looks as if they're defending more area on the floor while in 2k18 having your back turned to the post makes it seem like they're having a more limited defensive approach.
Video footage of screenshot #3 ( NBA2k14 )
Spoiler
We had this in the game earlier in the year. Like I monitored in the first paragraph, we wanted to make sure our fundamentals and man ball principals were straight before going crazy
Also, this can very on the player and his discipline in real life. Something else to note is our new motion system. Requiring entirely new "pistol" movement and transitions could cause issues and potentially lead to more back cuts. I don't work on the motion system, so requiring that over base movement would be much in year one imo. The guys who worked on it however did a great job and you will see and feel the difference in responsiveness immediately. The "perfect" arc you mentioned is not always going to be the case either. There's different versions of gap and moderate now, so things are constantly changing.
Nice post!Twitter: @ScottOGallagherComment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
The weak side split concept has been there since 2K16. A lot of users don't understand it and they have taken it as "broken defense" lol. Again, there's some improvements I would like to see us make in that aspect and communication of that as well. There's only so much time in a cycle!Apologies, haven't read the whole thread yet, but will we see advanced defensive rotations on the perimeter? Defenses playing on a string, players zoning and splitting shooters? Or will they just stay attached to their man?
There's a couple examples here: 2:45 and 3:45.
Good stuff OG!
Twitter: @ScottOGallagherComment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
Learn something new everyday. "The Pistol Stance" Does that mean it will be implemented with the release of 2k18 immediately, later, or later later down the line, or next year in 2k19?Not mentioned in the blog but this is something we have and we can update. This is just a base "pistol" stance. It's also something I've seen hated in here as well
We had this in the game earlier in the year. Like I monitored in the first paragraph, we wanted to make sure our fundamentals and man ball principals were straight before going crazy Also, this can very on the player and his discipline in real life. Something else to note is our new motion system. Requiring entirely new "pistol" movement and transitions could cause issues and potentially lead to more back cuts. I don't work on the motion system, so requiring that over base movement would be much in year one imo. The guys who worked on it however did a great job and you will see and feel the difference in responsiveness immediately. The "perfect" arc you mentioned is not always going to be the case either. There's different versions of gap and moderate now, so things are constantly changing.
Nice post!
Secondly, with the back and forth debate about that one play giving Simmons such a wide open look. Even though he's not a 3 point specialist, my impression for that sequence would have been better served if Otto Porter positioned himself as such sort of: Rather than himself moving to that white square location, having him position closer outside the paint still leaves plenty of room as if he's daring Simmons to shoot the corner three.
I'm basically ready for 2k18, going digital PSN as usual this year. Hopefully the "audio share" ps4 button will work this year. There was no sound with the audio in 2k17 when watching PS4 recording and no audio when uploading to youtube.
Last edited by strawberryshortcake; 08-30-2017, 01:47 AM.Comment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
I'm not sure to be honest. I'll be doing some more testing on that in the upcoming months. Like Czar mentioned, the cheese factories will be out in there in bunches trying to break the game. We'll see what's legit and what's not and go from there. You know as well as I do that you can't please everyone.Learn something new everyday. "The Pistol Stance" Does that mean it will be implemented with the release of 2k18 immediately, later, or later later down the line, or next year in 2k19?
Secondly, with the back and forth debate about that one play giving Simmons such a wide open look. Even though he's not a 3 point specialist, my impression for that sequence would have been better served if Otto Porter positioned himself as such sort of: Rather than himself moving to that white square location, having him position closer outside the paint still leaves plenty of room as if he's daring Simmons to shoot the corner three.
I'm basically ready for 2k18, going digital PSN as usual this year. Hopefully the "audio share" ps4 button will work this year. There was no sound with the audio in 2k17 when watching PS4 recording and no audio when uploading to youtube.
Twitter: @ScottOGallagherComment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
True. Please resist the temptation to patch the game unnecessarily.
Since you're still up; one last thing that has been kind of bugging me. Can we have the players make more use of the floor real estate. From what I see on TV, unless I mistaken, I rarely see the players hugging the baseline so close.
RED = is where I usually see the NBA2k defender and NBA2k offensive player position (so very close to the baseline)
BLUE = is where I think they should be (further away from the baseline).
Last edited by strawberryshortcake; 08-30-2017, 03:52 AM.Comment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
Two questions
1. has the delay been addressed when a user switches off a defender but sometimes it takes a while b4 the AI respond, standing in space for a moment b4 he returns to coverage?
2.will we ever get to see hot/cold streaks for defenders?
Last edited by kolanji; 08-30-2017, 02:53 AM.Humans fear what they dont understand, hate what they cant concur i guess its just the theory of manComment
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Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher
Yes. This is kind of baffling. The Warriors were #1 in defense (up from #4) the moment Kerr took over from Mark Jackson. Then stayed #3 or #4 the next year and returned to #2 this season. Yet he gets a B+?
Luke's Cavs were league average or worse at #22 on defense while playing in the East and yet gets an A. That's nuts to me. Sure Lue's strong point was defense and he achieved a championship taking advantage of the physical play that was allowed on one injured Stephen Curry the year before but that team couldn't sustain defensive performance with mostly the same roster next year (minus Dellavedova and a mostly ineffectual Mosgov). Meanwhile the Warriors were able to improve while losing their two defensive centers and replacing them with minimum contract guys in Zaza and McGee, while allowing Durant to have his best defensive season ever.
Ron Adams, GSW's assistant coach, was the mastermind of the Warriors' defense so it might make sense if assistants were also rated and affect team performance where Kerr is higher in offense and Adams defense, but if they aren't and don't, it makes little sense to rate Kerr that low (and Lue that high), especially when much has been lauded about the Warriors' seamless switching and positional defense.Last edited by Sundown; 08-30-2017, 06:00 AM.Comment
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