2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

[jeebs9]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

I don’t really understand what point you’re making here.

Obviously, with any video game, when we let go of the button, it’s decided whether the ball is going in or not. So why is the fact that it’s lighting up as green while the ball is in flight such a massive debate?

Shots going in at too high of a rate is a fine discussion to have. But we could literally remove greens from the discussion and still have the exact conversation.

Are we going to say “Release shouldn’t matter” and go back to NBA Live 10? Where we then have literally zero feedback on why a shot didn’t go in?

EASY ANSWER.... OPTIONS... Turn that **** off so I can enjoy the game. But don't force it down my throat. Now your forcing everyone to watch this green thing flash on the screen. Just because you want to know what you did wrong? Yeah don't force your experience down on every single user. I want to know when I'm going for a rebound there a chance it might miss. Instead of seeing it flash and just knowing to run back on defense.

You could add better visual cues or Like how about adding it into badges label when you press up on the d-pad. That would solve the whole problem. But currently they force you to see your opponent release. That's not fair.

They also had the time add 35 different SFX effects so you can hear a different sound. Anyone see that ****? Like yeah you added more. But couldn't figure out a way to remove it visually? LMAO


Edit
You got me all worked up now. NBA Live 10 Was a damn solid game!! It's down fail was shooting mechanic. Because outside shots and inside shots had no special. So you had all these weird players able to shoot really well. They could of build off that. What made that game solid was it didn't have 300 animations for one move. So you didn't have all these complicated parts working together.

But to close here. We are playing a video game? Is there math going on in the background around? **** yeah there is. There math going on in the background of the device your using to post to this thread but you're not getting constant info feed to you. Like I said. You want to see every badge in use and when they activate. By all means turn that on. On your screen. But don't force it on me. You want it on by default fine. But give us options to turn it off.

[tru11]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

I don’t really understand what point you’re making here.

Obviously, with any video game, when we let go of the button, it’s decided whether the ball is going in or not. So why is the fact that it’s lighting up as green while the ball is in flight such a massive debate?

Shots going in at too high of a rate is a fine discussion to have. But we could literally remove greens from the discussion and still have the exact conversation.

Are we going to say “Release shouldn’t matter” and go back to NBA Live 10? Where we then have literally zero feedback on why a shot didn’t go in?

Release should not matter as much as it does now.

Release is the biggest factor , while it should be among the least…

A green release is a 100% make.

A green release is a a perfect release.

Remove the green and a perfect release is a 100% make.

A perfect release should increase the odds of a shot landing but should not be a guaranteed whatsoever.

Which is the discussion.

Its about” green release” not just the green part which you only focus on.






Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Operation Sports

[Luke Skywalker]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

If you turn the shot meter and shot feedback off, does green release even matter anymore?

[jk31]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

If you turn the shot meter and shot feedback off, does green release even matter anymore?

Yes it does. Good shooters (that get many Green Releases, even if you dont See them) Shoot way too Good. average shooters (which get less Green Releases) Shoot way too Bad, because non perfect Releases are falling very badly. i collected statistics. slightly early/late Releases go in roughly 20 %.

[Luke Skywalker]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Yes it does. Good shooters (that get many Green Releases, even if you dont See them) Shoot way too Good. average shooters (which get less Green Releases) Shoot way too Bad, because non perfect Releases are falling very badly. i collected statistics. slightly early/late Releases go in roughly 20 %.

Is this with the slider on 50?

[tru11]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Is this with the slider on 50?

Where can you see/adjust sliders in mycareer or PnO?


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Operation Sports

[Luke Skywalker]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Where can you see/adjust sliders in mycareer or PnO?


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Operation Sports

Ah nvm those are arcadey modes, and that’ll be expected. I thought you meant offline.

[jk31]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Is this with the slider on 50?

Standard superstar sliders. So yes, 3pt slider at 50. i noted down every (open) 3pt attempt by me and my (human) opponents over a span of 13 games (excluding very early/late attempts). we Hit 167 Greens while non Greens only Fell 58/290. slightly early/late went in with 23.5 % (48/205) and early/late went in with 11.6 % (10/86).

[mvpstax]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

This all goes back to play style modes. I think back in 2k13 they had the option for simulation and arcade/casual (or something like that), and now Madden has Sim, Arcade, and Competitive.

I don't know why they don't have a few different mechanics that go into different style modes.

Like Competitive Mode could have meters determine the shot percentage..

Then Sim for example can determine a certain percentage increase/decrease based on the timing release. Here's how I could see it working:

Let's say you have KD shooting a mid range shot (IRL he shoots about 49% from 16-feet-to-3P area, so that will be our base number)..

Then let's say there are five outcomes for timing release: Perfect, Great, Good, Poor, Very Poor

Perfect = 10% increase
Great = 5%
Good = 0%
Poor = -5%
Very Poor = -10%

Obviously you can pick whatever percentage increase/decrease you want (maybe that could be its own slider), but this way you're still affecting the outcome by increasing/decreasing the odds that the shot falls. In this case, a Perfect release would increase KD's odds to make the shot to 59%, while a Very Poor release would drop it to 39%.

Then if you take a guy like Drummond (who has shot 13.5% for his career from deep) and shoot a three, the best you could hope for is a 23% chance of it going in, while a Very Poor release would drop it down to 3.5%..

To me, that seems like a realistic approach for shot-timing. Player ratings and skill should still be the most important factor. If shooting was like dribbling, then I would be able to time a chain perfectly and break ankles - but that doesn't happen, I just fumble the ball away. Hell, my 6'9" wing with a 25 rebound rating doesn't even jump for rebounds... how does that make sense (compared to a pure defending center greening and draining threes with a 40 three point shot rating)? ...The thinking of the system as a whole is broken.

[jk31]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

This all goes back to play style modes. I think back in 2k13 they had the option for simulation and arcade/casual (or something like that), and now Madden has Sim, Arcade, and Competitive.

I don't know why they don't have a few different mechanics that go into different style modes.

Like Competitive Mode could have meters determine the shot percentage..

Then Sim for example can determine a certain percentage increase/decrease based on the timing release. Here's how I could see it working:

Let's say you have KD shooting a mid range shot (IRL he shoots about 49% from 16-feet-to-3P area, so that will be our base number)..

Then let's say there are five outcomes for timing release: Perfect, Great, Good, Poor, Very Poor

Perfect = 10% increase
Great = 5%
Good = 0%
Poor = -5%
Very Poor = -10%

Obviously you can pick whatever percentage increase/decrease you want (maybe that could be its own slider), but this way you're still affecting the outcome by increasing/decreasing the odds that the shot falls. In this case, a Perfect release would increase KD's odds to make the shot to 59%, while a Very Poor release would drop it to 39%.

Then if you take a guy like Drummond (who has shot 13.5% for his career from deep) and shoot a three, the best you could hope for is a 23% chance of it going in, while a Very Poor release would drop it down to 3.5%..

To me, that seems like a realistic approach for shot-timing. Player ratings and skill should still be the most important factor. If shooting was like dribbling, then I would be able to time a chain perfectly and break ankles - but that doesn't happen, I just fumble the ball away. Hell, my 6'9" wing with a 25 rebound rating doesn't even jump for rebounds... how does that make sense (compared to a pure defending center greening and draining threes with a 40 three point shot rating)? ...The thinking of the system as a whole is broken.

That is exactly what I am looking for. That would be perfect. And it would basically be how it was in older 2ks!

[mvpstax]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

That is exactly what I am looking for. That would be perfect. And it would basically be how it was in older 2ks!

And just to take it one step further, don't even include "boosts" for hot zones, just display them for reference to the user and adjust the percentage accordingly.

Here's Dame's shot chart for example:

<img src="https://imgur.com/XeVh59H.jpg" style="width: 100%; max-width: 700px;"/>

As a user, I know that Dame has the best chance of making a center three rather than a corner three, so I would try to get an open center three if I were controlling him knowing that I have somewhere between a 33% chance and 53% of hitting the shot based on my timing with him.

This data is so easily available, I don't know why they wouldn't do this. IIRC I think it was NBA Live 10 that updated shot charts and tendencies throughout the season.

Just my .02

[Cardinal Sin]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

I will be honest I think both sides have some merit in this argument. Excess RNG is anathema to any competitive video gamer, while a lack of RNG is contrary to the actual game of basketball (or really any sport for that matter). Consequently 2k is kind of in a lose-lose situation when it comes to the shooting issue, they almost need a totally separate sim style game, and an arcady (or if you prefer a "skill-based") version for the online/competitive play.

I do agree though that being able to time a button press is a pretty loose definition of a "skill-gap" and also that the skill-gap overall in 2k is still quite low compared to your more prototypical E-sports games. Although it has been a major focus of 2k since about 2k18 to build the "competitive" aspect of the game and grow the skill-gap I don't really know if they have made much progress. I will say the contact dunk meter, and alley-oop timing is a step in the right direction, but they definitely need to do more.

[Acedeck]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

This entire debate can be summarized as this:

Competitive players want to be rewarded for their good timing, regardless of what it does to the "sim" nature of the game. They are the cream, so naturally they want 2k to allow the cream to rise to the top.

Alternatively, there are sim players who want the game to be more realistic, which means tweaking the auto-green shots. I'm not sure they all agree on how this needs to be tweaked (or even removed entirely), but they understand that the green meter rewards user skill to a degree that sometimes takes away from the sim feel of a game.


To the people who are pro-green shot meter, I have a couple simple questions for you. Do you not think it requires skill to create good shot opportunities? Do you think that rewarding users who create good shot opportunities need an additional crutch in a timing based system that has been proven to be easily exploitable? You already showcased your skill to create the opportunity to begin with. Why not just let the stats, abilities, badges, etc determine the rest?

The green shot meter reminds me a lot of when FPS games lower the TTK (time to kill), allowing even noobs to kill top level players with a single shot or two. It changes the entire feel of the game. No longer are players worried about their other skills as much as they're worried about how fast they can get their twitch mechanics. In NBA2k, the importance of the meter is scaled too high compared to other factors, similar to the twitch mechanic in some FPS games.

To each their own. Feel free to disagree. I'm open to hearing the opposing view.

[mvpstax]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

This entire debate can be summarized as this:

Competitive players want to be rewarded for their good timing, regardless of what it does to the "sim" nature of the game. They are the cream, so naturally they want 2k to allow the cream to rise to the top.

Alternatively, there are sim players who want the game to be more realistic, which means tweaking the auto-green shots. I'm not sure they all agree on how this needs to be tweaked (or even removed entirely), but they understand that the green meter rewards user skill to a degree that sometimes takes away from the sim feel of a game.


To the people who are pro-green shot meter, I have a couple simple questions for you. Do you not think it requires skill to create good shot opportunities? Do you think that rewarding users who create good shot opportunities need an additional crutch in a timing based system that has been proven to be easily exploitable? You already showcased your skill to create the opportunity to begin with. Why not just let the stats, abilities, badges, etc determine the rest?

The green shot meter reminds me a lot of when FPS games lower the TTK (time to kill), allowing even noobs to kill top level players with a single shot or two. It changes the entire feel of the game. No longer are players worried about their other skills as much as they're worried about how fast they can get their twitch mechanics. In NBA2k, the importance of the meter is scaled too high compared to other factors, similar to the twitch mechanic in some FPS games.

To each their own. Feel free to disagree. I'm open to hearing the opposing view.

Keep in mind that modded controllers are helping people "green" their shots. But regardless of that – tell me what is the point of having ratings if they don't matter?

I think that's what it comes down to.

The all-time record for one single season of three point shooters is 53.6%. This is an NBA game.

If you're going to allow green shots to be automatic and allow shooters to shoot 85%, then you might as well remove NBA from the title. It's so cheesy bro.

[Acedeck]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Keep in mind that modded controllers are helping people "green" their shots. But regardless of that – tell me what is the point of having ratings if they don't matter?

I think that's what it comes down to.

The all-time record for one single season of three point shooters is 53.6%. This is an NBA game.

If you're going to allow green shots to be automatic and allow shooters to shoot 85%, then you might as well remove NBA from the title. It's so cheesy bro.

Good point.

It's the tale as old as time, or at least as old as competitive online gaming. Cheesing vs. sim-play. As a sports gamer who predates online gaming, I lean heavily in the direction of simulation. The entire purpose of sports gaming was to recreate the real life experience in a fun and enjoyable way. Cheesing is the antithesis of fun and enjoyable, at least in my opinion.

To this day, I still actively try to avoid cheese plays in sports gaming, regardless of whether I'm playing online or not. The green meter has turned the entire shooting system into a potential cheese play in NBA2k. It's not as though it's a single play in Madden that you can adapt to. It's the entire freakin' system that has the issue. Every shot in NBA2k has the potential to be the equivalent of a cross-crease one-timer in the NHL series. I can't think of something more fundamental in basketball than shooting. With scores reaching 120+ points per game in the real NBA, you can't screw up that system - there's way too much shooting going on each game.