Bumping and canimations

[Jesus]

Re: Bumping and canimations

Do you mean help D strength when you say help eff?

yea, my mistake.

[Disappoint]

Re: Bumping and canimations

<object height="385" width="640">this is a perfect example right here


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/957VPlGTd6Q?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="640"></object>

[TeeDogg]

Re: Bumping and canimations

<object height="385" width="640">this is a perfect example right here


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/957VPlGTd6Q?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="640"></object>

ill give you this. sports games have never translated difficulty well. especialy on hight diffuculties. at least none that i have played. the higher levels have always lead to super charged cpu. but fortunatley i have never been good enough to play games on the highest levels. im still getting my but whooped on pro. but i do agree that i wish companies translated that better. i was still playing 2k10 on allstar (same level i strated on) and still finishing my seasons fighting for a playoff spot. i guess i just suck, HOF would be suicide for me

[BegBy]

Re: Bumping and canimations

The animation and it's context are perfect examples of what I have tried to convey, but I am too lazy to post a video. There is one more animation where the defender either gets in your way via that absolutely horrible slide (aka the "Paul Pierce shuffle") or despite not being in direct contact the ballhandler will literally bounce off the defender, taking steps backward.

They happen no matter who is defending and who is handling the ball, and they happen anywhere on the court. They also happen when near a second player on the opposing team, and said defender does not have to be actively attempting to help defend you. You just get sucked in and you stop your dribble. It's terrible, and it's not an acceptable means of 'defensive improvement'.

It's poor programming. It's lazy and unrealistic. Players in the NBA do not have that ability, or option. Even if they did, the NBA rules state clearly that a foul will be called against the defender.

I don't want to spam iso moves. I don't want to actually beat a player with a simple cross and him fall out of his shoes or end up 12 feet away. I just want a realistic basketball game.

I have already caught enough heat from people on the boards telling me how to work around it, or disagreeing, and I respect their opinions. My point is that this is what we as customers will continue to get if we accept it. This is a basketball sim, and the name of the game is ball and player movement, yet defenders are robot-like and methodical. They anticipate your moves effortlessly and assume a defensive position flawlessly no matter where they are on the court, or who they are.

All because it's easier to do this than program better physics, collision detection, player control and off ball movement and the animations affiliated with each subject. Not to mention defensive awareness.

Anyway, I hope Beluba was sincere in his efforts to try and remedy this, and instead of it being barely changed, a real solution is put into practice. As it is, I don't play now because inside 2 plays I get so angry with the lack of realism and throw in 2k10, yes...2k10.

Also knowing how it helps players online and players who like very hard games - great. Make it an option for them, or an option for us to turn it off, but do not ruin defense entirely, please.

[Jesus]

Re: Bumping and canimations

what the game needs to convey better is "taking what the defense gives"

In the Nba a player does not go a certain direction/place because of one of three things

1) There is already help there

2) They are not quick enough get around a defender

3) The defender takes the angle away

The problem is that the second reason is all too prevalent in 2k. I cant think of an instance when I was driving and a defender shuffled his feet at equal speed I was driving and took away my driving angle to the basket.

And I can only think of one or two instances where the A.I help was taking away the path to the basket I wanted and caused me to alter my drive. And that was only when they were trying to take the charge; in my opinion that is the only time the computer help defends properly.

There needs to be a definitive recognition of value of realty.

The paint is very valuable to the defense, and if they see you going there, they will step away from their man in anticipation. If the help is late or out of position as it can often be, the next step is to defend the rim. To do that the try to get to the outskirts of the block/charge circle before the offensive player, and once all other forms of defense have been breeched they go for the block or try to draw the charge.

Implementing funneling(which they have a base for with the shading), better pivoting and change of direction foot-work, foot-shuffling defense and the value system I just mentioned would eliminate the need for perimeter bumping. That and less aggressive moves when met with well positioned defense.

[eko718]

Re: Bumping and canimations

This video highlights an issue that I have been complaining about. The AI defender often tries to run to cutoff your path (as opposed to actually using the defensive slide posture) leaving them helpless to any change in direction. Notice at .14 in the video as Durant takes off running to cut Lebron off, taking him out of the play after I crossover.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AjGXcclSKoU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AjGXcclSKoU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

With on the ball defense like that, the help defense has very little opportunity to 'help'. This also needs to be addressed in the upcoming patch. The AI needs to utilize the defensive slide and defensive angles effectively as opposed to trying to run and jump in front of the ball handler. This is not the way I want to beat my defender off the dribble... this is either just dumb defense or a glitch.

I would have been ok with this if Durant was in the defensive posture and laterally hopped to his right in an effort to cut me off. If this were the case, the AI would also be in better position to recover from my crossover. There are some instances of that kind of ball handler vs. defender interaction where the 'chess match' was evident, and there needs to be more of that.

If Durant shaded me left into Jeff Green, it would have stopped my penetration all together. Defenders shading the ball handler into traffic needs to be worked into the AI.

[TeeDogg]

Re: Bumping and canimations

The animation and it's context are perfect examples of what I have tried to convey, but I am too lazy to post a video. There is one more animation where the defender either gets in your way via that absolutely horrible slide (aka the "Paul Pierce shuffle") or despite not being in direct contact the ballhandler will literally bounce off the defender, taking steps backward.

They happen no matter who is defending and who is handling the ball, and they happen anywhere on the court. They also happen when near a second player on the opposing team, and said defender does not have to be actively attempting to help defend you. You just get sucked in and you stop your dribble. It's terrible, and it's not an acceptable means of 'defensive improvement'.

It's poor programming. It's lazy and unrealistic. Players in the NBA do not have that ability, or option. Even if they did, the NBA rules state clearly that a foul will be called against the defender.

I don't want to spam iso moves. I don't want to actually beat a player with a simple cross and him fall out of his shoes or end up 12 feet away. I just want a realistic basketball game.

I have already caught enough heat from people on the boards telling me how to work around it, or disagreeing, and I respect their opinions. My point is that this is what we as customers will continue to get if we accept it. This is a basketball sim, and the name of the game is ball and player movement, yet defenders are robot-like and methodical. They anticipate your moves effortlessly and assume a defensive position flawlessly no matter where they are on the court, or who they are.

All because it's easier to do this than program better physics, collision detection, player control and off ball movement and the animations affiliated with each subject. Not to mention defensive awareness.

Anyway, I hope Beluba was sincere in his efforts to try and remedy this, and instead of it being barely changed, a real solution is put into practice. As it is, I don't play now because inside 2 plays I get so angry with the lack of realism and throw in 2k10, yes...2k10.

Also knowing how it helps players online and players who like very hard games - great. Make it an option for them, or an option for us to turn it off, but do not ruin defense entirely, please.

i thought he said in the vid it was only on HOF that this was a problem. the thread suggested many times to lower the difficulty. if you are back to 2k10 after playing this game i realy dont think anything is going to save it for you. good luck tho

[TheKasmar]

Re: Bumping and canimations

This video highlights an issue that I have been complaining about. The AI defender often tries to run to cutoff your path (as opposed to actually using the defensive slide posture) leaving them helpless to any change in direction. Notice at .14 in the video as Durant takes off running to cut Lebron off, taking him out of the play after I crossover.

<EMBED height=385 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=480 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/AjGXcclSKoU?fs=1&hl=en_US allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></EMBED>

Good example. Seems like alot of defenders are predictable with the cut-off move like you said, but I do like that it opens up opportunities for a crossover to a monster jam. Maybe in the future they can vary how much a defender tries to cut off a certain side.

[BegBy]

Re: Bumping and canimations

i thought he said in the vid it was only on HOF that this was a problem. the thread suggested many times to lower the difficulty. if you are back to 2k10 after playing this game i realy dont think anything is going to save it for you. good luck tho

It happens on every difficulty level. In the video mentioned above me, you see guys commit early and try to cut you off. In a wide open run like Lebron has there, then lol you eat them up. When you just get the ball in confined areas and you can't even move 3 feet because Marc Gasol guessed where you're going, and beats you there (because you aren't in a full on run), it's dumb. Both aspects of it are bad.

[TeeDogg]

Re: Bumping and canimations

It happens on every difficulty level. In the video mentioned above me, you see guys commit early and try to cut you off. In a wide open run like Lebron has there, then lol you eat them up. When you just get the ball in confined areas and you can't even move 3 feet because Marc Gasol guessed where you're going, and beats you there (because you aren't in a full on run), it's dumb. Both aspects of it are bad.

are you on the PS3?

[dubz]

Re: Bumping and canimations

<object height="385" width="640">this is a perfect example right here


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/957VPlGTd6Q?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="640"></object>

Maybe try not playing HOF? I mean HOF, All Madden, etc.. are all suppose to give the CPU an unrealistic advantage. Hall of Fame turns the CPU players into Hall of Famer's in a sense.

[Disappoint]

Re: Bumping and canimations

Maybe try not playing HOF? I mean HOF, All Madden, etc.. are all suppose to give the CPU an unrealistic advantage. Hall of Fame turns the CPU players into Hall of Famer's in a sense.

That isn't my video and I don't play on HOF. That sequence that you saw there happens on every difficulty (despite what the commentator said), even on rookie it doesn't make a difference. It is a part of the game, and it needs to be fixed.

[TeeDogg]

Re: Bumping and canimations

That isn't my video and I don't play on HOF. That sequence that you saw there happens on every difficulty (despite what the commentator said), even on rookie it doesn't make a difference. It is a part of the game, and it needs to be fixed.

im starting to think its worse on diffrent systems, im not having that problem at all on the 360 on resonable difficulty levels. some of these posts make wonder if there arent diffrent versions of the game out. i dont have the roster update either. i hear that changed gameplay some. maybe thats causing it. i just hope 2k doesnt go overboard trying to fix something alot of people arent experiencing, or know how to avoid.

[BegBy]

Re: Bumping and canimations

im starting to think its worse on diffrent systems, im not having that problem at all on the 360 on resonable difficulty levels. some of these posts make wonder if there arent diffrent versions of the game out. i dont have the roster update either. i hear that changed gameplay some. maybe thats causing it. i just hope 2k doesnt go overboard trying to fix something alot of people arent experiencing, or know how to avoid.

You're right, dude. It may be that each version has little issues that are more obvious than on other platforms. I was wondering that myself. Hard to say, and I would love to give the 2k staff the benefit of the doubt that it isn't like this, but it may very well be.

Gotta take it all with a grain of salt. I go on about how I see it all the time, and other people say they never do. I can't assume they are bs'ing, but my eyes see what they see. I'm sure some people think I am seeing it because I want to, or that I suck, or that I am exagerating. In any case, the platform variable could hold some weight.

[TeeDogg]

Re: Bumping and canimations

You're right, dude. It may be that each version has little issues that are more obvious than on other platforms. I was wondering that myself. Hard to say, and I would love to give the 2k staff the benefit of the doubt that it isn't like this, but it may very well be.

Gotta take it all with a grain of salt. I go on about how I see it all the time, and other people say they never do. I can't assume they are bs'ing, but my eyes see what they see. I'm sure some people think I am seeing it because I want to, or that I suck, or that I am exagerating. In any case, the platform variable could hold some weight.

LOL, sorry man. after the 2K/EA beefs on the boards the last few years it gets hard to know whos legit and whos trying just to stir the pot. its was worse than the Pac & biggie beef except nobody got shot : )
But i was actually about to make a post about how good the perimeter D was on both sides of the ball. before all the bumping posts started. I have gotten my jock handed to me by the likes of Nash and Parker trying to stay infront of them. theyd drive and dish, drive a kick, drive and finish. im flat loving it. DWade and Labron straight abused be in the regular season, and they are my next series in the playoffs so im looking 4 some get back. but anyhow again hope the patch works out for all of us.