Bumping and canimations

[luckeeloo]

Re: Bumping and canimations

I'll take a stab at improving this for the patch.

Great thread and my first post, so be gentle...

I think the simple fix is to add non-shooting Blocking Fouls to the game, as they are non-existent right now. More effective ways to draw Charging Fouls too, if only to see them happen 2-3 times per game (12 min. quarters). This would be awesome.

With that, lower the tendency for the defender to bump in general and boost those "riding" animations. If the ball handler runs in too aggressively and the defender can't avoid the contact, call a foul! Call it on anyone at all, but whatever you do, keep that suspension of disbelief going. It's so close to a perfect video game.

As it is, we can't get a charge or blocking foul unless the dribbler performs a hop-step or spin gather as a defender is attempting to take a charge.

This type of fix would help to deter (if not solve) the ISO cheesing we're forced into. The offensive player seeking contact might get called for a charge now and again, and you'll get more "sim" fouls (like basketball checks and balances) that don't result in free-throws. The defender might now allow room to create when isolated, but if he shades correctly, the help defense has a means to save the day.

Just makes you think more on both of sides of the ball.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Bumping and canimations

SMH, BESBY thats a instant ban if you complain about it being too easy to get by your man post patch...lol. Thanks Beluba, just dont over do it.

[tcnumba10]

Re: Bumping and canimations

I'll take a stab at improving this for the patch.

Hey Beluba, please make it so that it's not a dunk-fest in the paint if you're planning on making it easier to drive past your man. Just strengthen the defensive rotation to make it faster if the man drives past. Thanks

On a side note, can you add more off-ball movement by cpu teammates and more involvement of role players (Durant is taking too many shots, around 40FGA while others are taking too few shots)

Hopefully everything goes well and that the patch satisfies everyone.

[Mos1ted]

Re: Bumping and canimations

I'll co-sign what another poster mentioned a few posts back about the defensive focus being on protecting the paint, because in real life that's where the primary defensive focus is. If I'm a coach or a team on offense, I want the easiest shot. Where's the easiest shot? Inside. In the paint. Defenses know this, and which is why defending the painted area is their primary concern.

It's not necessarily the bumping itself that bothers me. It's the fact that the appropriate fouls aren't called in those situations which leads me to believe that the unpenalized (is that a word?) bumping was an intentional fix to prevent inside penetration and therefore limit excessive points in the paint. 9 times out of the 10, the bumping that is present (because on default the bumping isn't that excessive honestly) in the game comes from a fairly realistic cause and effect sequence of a defender interacting with a ball handler, and I do stress the word fairly. It should be a penalty for the offense or the defense resulting in a charge or a block in the appropriate context when this does occur because it is specifically prohibited in the rule book.

This also makes stopping the ball handler or the ball handler getting by his defender a more cat and mouse game because either side will ask themselves the question: How can I achieve my goal (whether it's getting by the defender or stopping the ballhandler) while staying within the confines of the rule book and not be hit with an unnecessary foul? Unfortunately, that cerebral approach to perimeter offense/defense is not currently present in the game.

An on-ball defender has one primary focus: stay between the ballhandler and the basket while preventing him from going where he wants to go; a secondary focus would be to remain ready to defend the shot should the ballhandler decide to pull up or get inside to attempt a dunk or layup. As we all know, there are only a handful (literally) of premium on-ball defenders in the NBA, Shane Battier and Ron Artest being amongst the best of them.

An off-ball defender has several primary focuses which include knowing where his assignment is and remaining close enough to react should the ball come his way, and knowing where the ball is at all times so he can help out should his teammate fail to keep his assignment in front of him and get a clear path to the basket.

I think all of the technology is present in 2K11 to change to this aspect of defense. It's just a matter of programming so that the game will operate in such of way. Being that I have zero programming knowledge or experience, I could be guilty of giving a solution that is easier said than done.

[BegBy]

Re: Bumping and canimations

Even if there were to be a foul called on only 50% of the bumping it would be out of control. I also think far too many would be called against the offense due to a lot of the time the defensive player guesses your spot and jumps with both feet planted. While it's different than what the game currently plays like, I think it's kind of bad and a lot of people will be upset with having 4 non-shooting fouls in the first 3 possessions. I am speculating though, and could be dead wrong.

Regardless of the outcome I am ultra happy to see how it's been acknowledged. Especially by Beluba If 2k can please the people that like it, and the people that don't this could easily go down as the best sports title ever, and possibly one of the better games period, as it's one of the only few glaring issues the game has.

[Jesus]

Re: Bumping and canimations

one concern I have is that the game does not have to ability to incorporate the concern that a player has that keeps them from constantly driving.

Maybe a bit more picking up of the dribble for forcing the drive, but good on ball defender moves his feet at such a speed that he is step for step with you and extends the angle at which the offensive player drives.

[Mos1ted]

Re: Bumping and canimations

Even if there were to be a foul called on only 50% of the bumping it would be out of control. I also think far too many would be called against the offense due to a lot of the time the defensive player guesses your spot and jumps with both feet planted.

That's the desired effect in my opinion. A lot of the bumping happens as a result of the offensive player trying to "force" the drive, so a charge should be called (if warranted) to discourage this type of behavior. It is up to the user at that point (when in control of the ballhandler) to be mindful of the consequences if he/she continually tries to drive the ball all the time instead of relying on picks and things to get by defenders that he/she is having trouble getting by. This is also hoping that the AI would be smart enough to avoid the risk of picking up numerous charging calls and choosing an alternative such as calling for a pick, picking up the dribble, or passing off to a teammate.

[Mos1ted]

Re: Bumping and canimations

On Ball Defense 101 at work here fellas (and ladies):

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x4aDM5d27_w?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x4aDM5d27_w?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Also notice how the incidental bumping is allowed. Just not the type of non-incidental bumping that we normally see in 2K11. You can also see how Kobe is mindful not to lower his shoulders (and possibly drawing a charge) and how Battier doesn't lean into Kobe when trying to crowd him (to avoid a reach in foul or blocking charge).

[BegBy]

Re: Bumping and canimations

The only concerns I see with that are as of right now, every defender in the game plays that well. Combined with the suck in animations, the length of said animations, and also the tendency for the second defender to apply the same defensive pressure resulting in a suck in animation.

Battier is the best on ball defender in the league currently, imo. Artest has been less than his former self since joining the Lakers, not to say he still isn't one of the best. That said both examples of Artest and Battier are such extreme examples. That defense is second to none. As Kenny Smith said - you can't play better on ball D than what happened there. This could lead to issues where the on ball D for a player is rated high enough that it surpasses the offensive ability of the ballhandler, more often than not, leading to the same situation we suffer from now. I look through the rosters and scrubs have 70+ on ball D. If the measure of on ball D are examples like Battier and Artest being 95+, and the game defaults to giving Kobe 90ish...there is a huuuuuge issue with that in my mind. Don't get me wrong, Kobe is a good ball defender, but to be in that range if the ceiling is Artest and Battier at 99, then I see problems.

Good perimeter/on ball D guys like Barnes, Sefalosha, Rondo ... hell even guys that are just pretty good like Pierce, LeBron, Kobe, Marion and Jefferies (yes I think he is a versatile defender) might have an advantage. They do now, and 'slight fixes' aren't really gonna fix much, unless of course I am proven dead wrong and something changes. I am all for that. I don't want a lane 24/7. I do want (as seen in the video) being D'd up and being able to get to where I am going (roughly)a good chunk of the time. Kobe exploded on him and got away, and yes Kobe is elite and so is Battier, but the rules favor the ballhandler. NBA players have the skill set to do that as mentioned on other posts.

I am not saying this a bad idea...I love it. I am worried about it's implementation, and how it may be less than what's needed. If they go a more generic route and just tone down ratings or their reactions, animations, game code for collision and response etc, it may be a lot easier.

But yeah...I want to see guys like Battier be a pain in the butt. Not an 'OMG I CANT SCORE AM STUCK IN ANIMATIONS GUYS WTF" guy, but a serious pain. Getting fouls, forcing fouls, steals, turnovers. It's all wanted from my perspective.

[Serra11]

Re: Bumping and canimations

On Ball Defense 101 at work here fellas (and ladies):

<object width="480" height="385">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x4aDM5d27_w?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object>

Also notice how the incidental bumping is allowed. Just not the type of non-incidental bumping that we normally see in 2K11. You can also see how Kobe is mindful not to lower his shoulders (and possibly drawing a charge) and how Battier doesn't lean into Kobe when trying to crowd him (to avoid a reach in foul or blocking charge).

Sorry if I'm off topic but ok Artest,Brewer,Mbah a Moute,Pietrus are all good on ball defenders but Battier......he's really the best in the league!

[eko718]

Re: Bumping and canimations

That's the desired effect in my opinion. A lot of the bumping happens as a result of the offensive player trying to "force" the drive, so a charge should be called (if warranted) to discourage this type of behavior. It is up to the user at that point (when in control of the ballhandler) to be mindful of the consequences if he/she continually tries to drive the ball all the time instead of relying on picks and things to get by defenders that he/she is having trouble getting by. This is also hoping that the AI would be smart enough to avoid the risk of picking up numerous charging calls and choosing an alternative such as calling for a pick, picking up the dribble, or passing off to a teammate.

I think you would see the complaints intensify if this change were made. There would need to be a very cautious balance. As in the video you posted, there IS bumping that occurs on the perimeter when intense defense is being played and perimeter contact should not be totally eliminated. The defender currently has weight and you can't just run through him which is necessary. You define whats in the video as 'incidental' and whats in the game as non-incidental and that's a whole different argument. Opinions may vary on how appropriate the bumping is depending on the person playing the game and how they play it as Czar stated earlier. I don't however disagree that they could stand to be reduced from a realism standpoint, as long as it does not affect realism in other areas of this well done game.

If bumping on the perimeter is reduced, it is imperative to keep contact in the paint how it is currently. Also, defenders will need to take better angles when defending. As I complained about regarding last weeks 'shift in gameplay', there was less bumping for sure, but defenders were completely out of the play once they were passed. Many times an offensive player will get the 'angle' on a defender and have that defender on his hip while driving to the basket. Instances of blow bys in the NBA are not as frequent as some have suggested. One solution might be creating a 'gentler' contact animation that does not totally stop the ballhandler in his tracks.

[TeeDogg]

Re: Bumping and canimations

I'll take a stab at improving this for the patch.

PLEASE!!! keep in mind the hordes of players that have learned how to use the ball handler to break down defenders, love the challenge, and are already calling this the best sports game made. I cant imagine making it easier to get into the lane ( tho i do play on pro) but if you do please beef up help D and contact animations in the paint.

as the video in this thread showed even great player like Kobe cant turn the NBA into an and1 exibition at will.

oh and congrats on an AMAZING game!

[Mos1ted]

Re: Bumping and canimations

I just played a quick game of Rockets (me) vs Lakers and evaluated the bumping I so during instant replays. One of the problems I saw frequently was that the bumps caused the ballhandler to go back when physics says the ballhandler's force should have caused the defender to get bumped back. So it's not that the bumps shouldn't occur, is that the results that should have happened as a result didn't occur. Another problem is the lack of charging that's currently present in the game. I wonder just how much of an impact that really has on this problem. I wonder if charging was present like it should be, if that would counter and prevent the user from trying to take the ball to the paint when the space and opportunity isn't there.

What I'm also seeing is that there's nothing really separating excellent on ball defenders from average ones. Battier's the highest rated on ball defender in the game with a 99, but when trying to control him, he seemed "dumbed down" and wasn't playing to his rating. I wasn't able to react in time to changes of directions or I would get caught up in some random animation that prevented me from reacting in other times. This supports the other constant complaints that the human AI plays worse than the CPU AI when shouldn't be occurring.

Quite frankly, the defensive AI in this game leaves a lot to be desired. If you ask me, it's even regressed from the demo. I felt the defense in the demo was definitely on point.

[BegBy]

Re: Bumping and canimations

PLEASE!!! keep in mind the hords of players that have learned how to use the ball handler to break down defenders, love the challenge, and are already calling this the best sports game made. I cant imagine making it easier to get into the lane ( tho i do play on pro) but if you do please beef up help D and contact animations in the paint.

as the video in this thread showed even great player like Kobe cant turn the NBA into an and1 exibition at will.

oh and congrats on an AMAZING game!

You're only blowing by people because of a combination of settings, sliders and spamming iso moves. Spamming iso moves is not the desired affect for people who like a realistic playstyle. I can do that too. I refuse to. I don't want to play an and1 game, I want to play an NBA game.

[TeeDogg]

Re: Bumping and canimations

You're only blowing by people because of a combination of settings, sliders and spamming iso moves. Spamming iso moves is not the desired affect for people who like a realistic playstyle. I can do that too. I refuse to. I don't want to play an and1 game, I want to play an NBA game.

Cuzz, i havent even learned a bunch of iso yet. like i said earlier in this thread i use LS crossovers (no triggers) and wrap arounds. occasional stutters and picks. I get the defender moving and use his momentum against him.

im gradually adding more iso moves to my game, but its so much to learn.