MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

[jmood88]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
FootballForever said:
First and formost no one is bashing ESPN, let me tell you somthing, I been a big ESPN aka (NBA2k) fan for the last four years, Im mean hard core. I got ESPN this year and It changed this, but for the worse IMO its just not the same game. I just think the gameplay is just horried this year. The players just stand around like there waiting for a cab, and dont say anthing to me cause Ive been a avid fan of this seriers since it came out. Now getting the game playing like the NBA, yes LIVE is more real IMO cause players in the NBA dont stand around like you say they do, everytime I watch the NBA the players are always moving all the time. ESPN just dosen't feel real anymore, Oh well that my take on it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

What happened to your "brother"?

[Graphik]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

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bigeastbumrush said:
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wwharton said:
you guys are really funny. this has nothing to do with your stupid little wars about which game is better. I could care less. There is very little movement off the ball in the NBA. I have direct tv so I could've given a number of examples but that was the game on regular cable tonight. You can watch all week. Find a player without the ball and watch him. They just don't move much. It's nothing to do with Live, ESPN, ID whatever. I'm just sick of people saying how they just watched a game and saw all the back screens, cuts and constant movement b/c it's just a lie.

And please don't preach to ME about NBA being pure basketball. Basketball is my life and has been for the last 15 years. I love the NBA, but it's not pure basketball it's just the highest level of individual talent. The best combination of talent and game is college basketball. That is where you will see the constant movement that everyone claims is in the NBA when only a few teams like the Kings actually do move that much (and they run an offense created by one of the most inventive college coaches of all times). The purest form of the game is probably division 3 basketball b/c the players aren't as athletic as division one and the player movement means more b/c there isn't as much above the rim play. The same is true about high level women's college ball.

So no, the NBA is not basketball at it's purest. Yes I love the NBA. No there isn't a lot of off the ball movement in the NBA. Use that to fuel the fire of this stupid game war however you wish.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


"Pure" basketball is just your opinion of how the game should be played. It's not a fact, it's simply a term that you're using to label a style of play.

It has nothing to do with the videogame. It has to do with how coaches run their teams' offenses.

And to say that the Kings are only one of a few teams that have movement in their offense is simply not true. I don't need to be a coach or have DirectTV to see that even some of the lowest scoring teams in the league call set plays on nearly every offensive possession and the players try to execute them.

That being said, I don't think any coach draws up a play and tells 4 of his 5 men to stand there while the guy with the ball displays his "higest level of individual talent".

Movement is not just back picks, screens, etc.

There's reaching, grabbing, bumping, guys tugging at their shorts, all kinds of moving going on.

"Pure" basketball Maybe they'll consider that for the next generation consoles.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">



I'll add a lil something to the argument.

How many times did you hear the commentators in yesterdays Clevland v Denver game comment on Lebron just standing on the weakside doing nothing? You heard it a few times. They wanted him to get involved and in order to get involved, you need to move, plain and simple. You gotta actually want the ball and moving around helps you get the ball.

So my point is, yes, players in the NBA do move around a whole lot BUT not to the extent that NBA Live portrays. But the only reason players in NBA Live constantly move around is because the ball moves around so frenquently. If you stand still with the ball, the other players will stand still.(Besides Centers and Power Fowards who constantly battle for post position) But the other players will stand in a spot and wait for the ball or the player to move around.

I've already stated the the 10 man mo-cap only works depending on where the ball is. If you stand out past the 3 point line holding the ball, nobody will move. You start to go in, players start moving/shifting/setting screens/etc. So on that note, YOU the player make the off the ball movement work. Depending on your style of play, you can make the the off the ball movement as frequent or as less as you want.

But in comparison to the real NBA, no it does'nt capture how the real NBA works. Players move off the ball depending on diffrent factors. ie: the play called, the position of the ball, or if they wanna be involved or not. NBA Live as wwharton describes captures "pure basketball" or however you make that term. But NBA Live captures how basketball is played in a non-proffesional maner. When you play a 5 on 5 out on the steet, the off the ball movement is almost constant because everyone wants to be involved and everybody wants a touch.

Dont get it twisted, I'm not saying NBA Live is street ball but all I'm saying is that NBA Live is not and I repeat is not an actual depiction of NBA Ball. If any of you guys remembered watching the 10 man mo-cap videos when they were showing how it was created, what you saw was not NBA players. You saw regular guys depicting how a regular half court game of basketball is played. And that was constant off the ball movement and everyone playing to be involved.

[Graphik]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
bigeastbumrush said:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
wwharton said:
you guys are really funny. this has nothing to do with your stupid little wars about which game is better. I could care less. There is very little movement off the ball in the NBA. I have direct tv so I could've given a number of examples but that was the game on regular cable tonight. You can watch all week. Find a player without the ball and watch him. They just don't move much. It's nothing to do with Live, ESPN, ID whatever. I'm just sick of people saying how they just watched a game and saw all the back screens, cuts and constant movement b/c it's just a lie.

And please don't preach to ME about NBA being pure basketball. Basketball is my life and has been for the last 15 years. I love the NBA, but it's not pure basketball it's just the highest level of individual talent. The best combination of talent and game is college basketball. That is where you will see the constant movement that everyone claims is in the NBA when only a few teams like the Kings actually do move that much (and they run an offense created by one of the most inventive college coaches of all times). The purest form of the game is probably division 3 basketball b/c the players aren't as athletic as division one and the player movement means more b/c there isn't as much above the rim play. The same is true about high level women's college ball.

So no, the NBA is not basketball at it's purest. Yes I love the NBA. No there isn't a lot of off the ball movement in the NBA. Use that to fuel the fire of this stupid game war however you wish.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


"Pure" basketball is just your opinion of how the game should be played. It's not a fact, it's simply a term that you're using to label a style of play.

It has nothing to do with the videogame. It has to do with how coaches run their teams' offenses.

And to say that the Kings are only one of a few teams that have movement in their offense is simply not true. I don't need to be a coach or have DirectTV to see that even some of the lowest scoring teams in the league call set plays on nearly every offensive possession and the players try to execute them.

That being said, I don't think any coach draws up a play and tells 4 of his 5 men to stand there while the guy with the ball displays his "higest level of individual talent".

Movement is not just back picks, screens, etc.

There's reaching, grabbing, bumping, guys tugging at their shorts, all kinds of moving going on.

"Pure" basketball Maybe they'll consider that for the next generation consoles.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">



I'll add a lil something to the argument.

How many times did you hear the commentators in yesterdays Clevland v Denver game comment on Lebron just standing on the weakside doing nothing? You heard it a few times. They wanted him to get involved and in order to get involved, you need to move, plain and simple. You gotta actually want the ball and moving around helps you get the ball.

So my point is, yes, players in the NBA do move around a whole lot BUT not to the extent that NBA Live portrays. But the only reason players in NBA Live constantly move around is because the ball moves around so frenquently. If you stand still with the ball, the other players will stand still.(Besides Centers and Power Fowards who constantly battle for post position) But the other players will stand in a spot and wait for the ball or the player to move around.

I've already stated the the 10 man mo-cap only works depending on where the ball is. If you stand out past the 3 point line holding the ball, nobody will move. You start to go in, players start moving/shifting/setting screens/etc. So on that note, YOU the player make the off the ball movement work. Depending on your style of play, you can make the the off the ball movement as frequent or as less as you want.

But in comparison to the real NBA, no it does'nt capture how the real NBA works. Players move off the ball depending on diffrent factors. ie: the play called, the position of the ball, or if they wanna be involved or not. NBA Live as wwharton describes captures "pure basketball" or however you make that term. But NBA Live captures how basketball is played in a non-proffesional maner. When you play a 5 on 5 out on the steet, the off the ball movement is almost constant because everyone wants to be involved and everybody wants a touch.

Dont get it twisted, I'm not saying NBA Live is street ball but all I'm saying is that NBA Live is not and I repeat is not an actual depiction of NBA Ball. If any of you guys remembered watching the 10 man mo-cap videos when they were showing how it was created, what you saw was not NBA players. You saw regular guys depicting how a regular half court game of basketball is played. And that was constant off the ball movement and everyone playing to be involved.

[Graphik]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
bigeastbumrush said:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
wwharton said:
you guys are really funny. this has nothing to do with your stupid little wars about which game is better. I could care less. There is very little movement off the ball in the NBA. I have direct tv so I could've given a number of examples but that was the game on regular cable tonight. You can watch all week. Find a player without the ball and watch him. They just don't move much. It's nothing to do with Live, ESPN, ID whatever. I'm just sick of people saying how they just watched a game and saw all the back screens, cuts and constant movement b/c it's just a lie.

And please don't preach to ME about NBA being pure basketball. Basketball is my life and has been for the last 15 years. I love the NBA, but it's not pure basketball it's just the highest level of individual talent. The best combination of talent and game is college basketball. That is where you will see the constant movement that everyone claims is in the NBA when only a few teams like the Kings actually do move that much (and they run an offense created by one of the most inventive college coaches of all times). The purest form of the game is probably division 3 basketball b/c the players aren't as athletic as division one and the player movement means more b/c there isn't as much above the rim play. The same is true about high level women's college ball.

So no, the NBA is not basketball at it's purest. Yes I love the NBA. No there isn't a lot of off the ball movement in the NBA. Use that to fuel the fire of this stupid game war however you wish.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


"Pure" basketball is just your opinion of how the game should be played. It's not a fact, it's simply a term that you're using to label a style of play.

It has nothing to do with the videogame. It has to do with how coaches run their teams' offenses.

And to say that the Kings are only one of a few teams that have movement in their offense is simply not true. I don't need to be a coach or have DirectTV to see that even some of the lowest scoring teams in the league call set plays on nearly every offensive possession and the players try to execute them.

That being said, I don't think any coach draws up a play and tells 4 of his 5 men to stand there while the guy with the ball displays his "higest level of individual talent".

Movement is not just back picks, screens, etc.

There's reaching, grabbing, bumping, guys tugging at their shorts, all kinds of moving going on.

"Pure" basketball Maybe they'll consider that for the next generation consoles.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">



I'll add a lil something to the argument.

How many times did you hear the commentators in yesterdays Clevland v Denver game comment on Lebron just standing on the weakside doing nothing? You heard it a few times. They wanted him to get involved and in order to get involved, you need to move, plain and simple. You gotta actually want the ball and moving around helps you get the ball.

So my point is, yes, players in the NBA do move around a whole lot BUT not to the extent that NBA Live portrays. But the only reason players in NBA Live constantly move around is because the ball moves around so frenquently. If you stand still with the ball, the other players will stand still.(Besides Centers and Power Fowards who constantly battle for post position) But the other players will stand in a spot and wait for the ball or the player to move around.

I've already stated the the 10 man mo-cap only works depending on where the ball is. If you stand out past the 3 point line holding the ball, nobody will move. You start to go in, players start moving/shifting/setting screens/etc. So on that note, YOU the player make the off the ball movement work. Depending on your style of play, you can make the the off the ball movement as frequent or as less as you want.

But in comparison to the real NBA, no it does'nt capture how the real NBA works. Players move off the ball depending on diffrent factors. ie: the play called, the position of the ball, or if they wanna be involved or not. NBA Live as wwharton describes captures "pure basketball" or however you make that term. But NBA Live captures how basketball is played in a non-proffesional maner. When you play a 5 on 5 out on the steet, the off the ball movement is almost constant because everyone wants to be involved and everybody wants a touch.

Dont get it twisted, I'm not saying NBA Live is street ball but all I'm saying is that NBA Live is not and I repeat is not an actual depiction of NBA Ball. If any of you guys remembered watching the 10 man mo-cap videos when they were showing how it was created, what you saw was not NBA players. You saw regular guys depicting how a regular half court game of basketball is played. And that was constant off the ball movement and everyone playing to be involved.

[wwharton]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

Thanks, graphik. That's pretty much the only point I was making. I'm not commenting on whether Live is a good or fun game or not as a) i haven't played it and b) in some cases being extremely realistic makes the game less fun for a lot (heard that alot from people that didn't like 2k3). Finally, I think all of these comparison posts should stop anyway.

Rickster, you are right, very good post. I actually do have a very high level of patience. Look at the post just above yours. It's THAT stuff that jsut makes it not even worth the discussion. I'm not getting off track and talking about how horrible basketball is now, etc, etc. I love ALL basketball as it was and as it is. But that doesn't change the fact that constant movement in the NBA is for the most part in the past. And I'm not screaming it, but I see posts every day about how a game not having constant movement, plays like motion and flex, etc. should be ashamed to call itself a sim. This is just funny.

For the record, I do like ESPN basketball. I also think they made a huge mistake taking out all the plays they had even though modification of them was needed. I also think there is a realistic amount of movement in the game, which isn't always a good thing. This is why I say it sounds like Live creates a perceived reality... less realistic with potential constant movement, but the deviation from reality may add to the enjoyment of the game.

It's that simple, but what gets me heated is when a simple statement, my opinion even gets people all bent out of shape about stuff that's off topic. I'm not in the wrong forum or the wrong thread for my thoughts that directly responded to a post. Going off on a tangent about how you disagree with my thoughts and telling me I need to be in the basketball forum is what's unrelated. Arguments for the sake of arguing, like most everything else around here. Why can't we just enjoy and analyze our games without thinking every word has the intent of knocking one?

[wwharton]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

Thanks, graphik. That's pretty much the only point I was making. I'm not commenting on whether Live is a good or fun game or not as a) i haven't played it and b) in some cases being extremely realistic makes the game less fun for a lot (heard that alot from people that didn't like 2k3). Finally, I think all of these comparison posts should stop anyway.

Rickster, you are right, very good post. I actually do have a very high level of patience. Look at the post just above yours. It's THAT stuff that jsut makes it not even worth the discussion. I'm not getting off track and talking about how horrible basketball is now, etc, etc. I love ALL basketball as it was and as it is. But that doesn't change the fact that constant movement in the NBA is for the most part in the past. And I'm not screaming it, but I see posts every day about how a game not having constant movement, plays like motion and flex, etc. should be ashamed to call itself a sim. This is just funny.

For the record, I do like ESPN basketball. I also think they made a huge mistake taking out all the plays they had even though modification of them was needed. I also think there is a realistic amount of movement in the game, which isn't always a good thing. This is why I say it sounds like Live creates a perceived reality... less realistic with potential constant movement, but the deviation from reality may add to the enjoyment of the game.

It's that simple, but what gets me heated is when a simple statement, my opinion even gets people all bent out of shape about stuff that's off topic. I'm not in the wrong forum or the wrong thread for my thoughts that directly responded to a post. Going off on a tangent about how you disagree with my thoughts and telling me I need to be in the basketball forum is what's unrelated. Arguments for the sake of arguing, like most everything else around here. Why can't we just enjoy and analyze our games without thinking every word has the intent of knocking one?

[wwharton]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

Thanks, graphik. That's pretty much the only point I was making. I'm not commenting on whether Live is a good or fun game or not as a) i haven't played it and b) in some cases being extremely realistic makes the game less fun for a lot (heard that alot from people that didn't like 2k3). Finally, I think all of these comparison posts should stop anyway.

Rickster, you are right, very good post. I actually do have a very high level of patience. Look at the post just above yours. It's THAT stuff that jsut makes it not even worth the discussion. I'm not getting off track and talking about how horrible basketball is now, etc, etc. I love ALL basketball as it was and as it is. But that doesn't change the fact that constant movement in the NBA is for the most part in the past. And I'm not screaming it, but I see posts every day about how a game not having constant movement, plays like motion and flex, etc. should be ashamed to call itself a sim. This is just funny.

For the record, I do like ESPN basketball. I also think they made a huge mistake taking out all the plays they had even though modification of them was needed. I also think there is a realistic amount of movement in the game, which isn't always a good thing. This is why I say it sounds like Live creates a perceived reality... less realistic with potential constant movement, but the deviation from reality may add to the enjoyment of the game.

It's that simple, but what gets me heated is when a simple statement, my opinion even gets people all bent out of shape about stuff that's off topic. I'm not in the wrong forum or the wrong thread for my thoughts that directly responded to a post. Going off on a tangent about how you disagree with my thoughts and telling me I need to be in the basketball forum is what's unrelated. Arguments for the sake of arguing, like most everything else around here. Why can't we just enjoy and analyze our games without thinking every word has the intent of knocking one?

[ATrillionaire]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

I only told you that you belonged in the basketball forum after you got all worked up cause I said I disagreed with you. If your post was not intended to be about NBA Live or ESPN, which I think it was after reading your last post, then I think you should have stated so cause anyone in here who reads your post will think you are talking about either game, hence the thread comparing Live to ESPN. If someone can't disagree in this forum, then is this a forum?


You're not the only one in here that can be rude!!!

[ATrillionaire]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

I only told you that you belonged in the basketball forum after you got all worked up cause I said I disagreed with you. If your post was not intended to be about NBA Live or ESPN, which I think it was after reading your last post, then I think you should have stated so cause anyone in here who reads your post will think you are talking about either game, hence the thread comparing Live to ESPN. If someone can't disagree in this forum, then is this a forum?


You're not the only one in here that can be rude!!!

[ATrillionaire]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

I only told you that you belonged in the basketball forum after you got all worked up cause I said I disagreed with you. If your post was not intended to be about NBA Live or ESPN, which I think it was after reading your last post, then I think you should have stated so cause anyone in here who reads your post will think you are talking about either game, hence the thread comparing Live to ESPN. If someone can't disagree in this forum, then is this a forum?


You're not the only one in here that can be rude!!!

[Court_vision]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Graphik said:


Dont get it twisted, I'm not saying NBA Live is street ball but all I'm saying is that NBA Live is not and I repeat is not an actual depiction of NBA Ball. If any of you guys remembered watching the 10 man mo-cap videos when they were showing how it was created, what you saw was not NBA players. You saw regular guys depicting how a regular half court game of basketball is played. And that was constant off the ball movement and everyone playing to be involved.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Absolutely EXACTLY correct.

LIVE plays a fantastic game of ball...but it's no NBA ball. I don't see why people have so much trouble accepting that. It's pretty odvious, and it also isn't that big a thing...it still plays a good game.

If anyone needs proof...I am playing sideline / little zoom (due to slow down) and [b]without a full view of the court or where my players are I still use direct pass and hit them on the chest every time.

How? Because there's ALWAYS someone posted up either side and there's ALWAYS two men in the deep pockets. ie, the offense is "coaches manual" basketball. It's easy to run and is classic half court stuff, once in the half, but it's not the way the modern NBA play book is.

Honestly, since this debate started I have watched the TV games very closely...and as Graphik said, the movement of ESPN is how the NBA is.

Whether that's a good thing or not is an entirely different debate

[Court_vision]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Graphik said:


Dont get it twisted, I'm not saying NBA Live is street ball but all I'm saying is that NBA Live is not and I repeat is not an actual depiction of NBA Ball. If any of you guys remembered watching the 10 man mo-cap videos when they were showing how it was created, what you saw was not NBA players. You saw regular guys depicting how a regular half court game of basketball is played. And that was constant off the ball movement and everyone playing to be involved.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Absolutely EXACTLY correct.

LIVE plays a fantastic game of ball...but it's no NBA ball. I don't see why people have so much trouble accepting that. It's pretty odvious, and it also isn't that big a thing...it still plays a good game.

If anyone needs proof...I am playing sideline / little zoom (due to slow down) and [b]without a full view of the court or where my players are I still use direct pass and hit them on the chest every time.

How? Because there's ALWAYS someone posted up either side and there's ALWAYS two men in the deep pockets. ie, the offense is "coaches manual" basketball. It's easy to run and is classic half court stuff, once in the half, but it's not the way the modern NBA play book is.

Honestly, since this debate started I have watched the TV games very closely...and as Graphik said, the movement of ESPN is how the NBA is.

Whether that's a good thing or not is an entirely different debate

[Court_vision]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Graphik said:


Dont get it twisted, I'm not saying NBA Live is street ball but all I'm saying is that NBA Live is not and I repeat is not an actual depiction of NBA Ball. If any of you guys remembered watching the 10 man mo-cap videos when they were showing how it was created, what you saw was not NBA players. You saw regular guys depicting how a regular half court game of basketball is played. And that was constant off the ball movement and everyone playing to be involved.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Absolutely EXACTLY correct.

LIVE plays a fantastic game of ball...but it's no NBA ball. I don't see why people have so much trouble accepting that. It's pretty odvious, and it also isn't that big a thing...it still plays a good game.

If anyone needs proof...I am playing sideline / little zoom (due to slow down) and [b]without a full view of the court or where my players are I still use direct pass and hit them on the chest every time.

How? Because there's ALWAYS someone posted up either side and there's ALWAYS two men in the deep pockets. ie, the offense is "coaches manual" basketball. It's easy to run and is classic half court stuff, once in the half, but it's not the way the modern NBA play book is.

Honestly, since this debate started I have watched the TV games very closely...and as Graphik said, the movement of ESPN is how the NBA is.

Whether that's a good thing or not is an entirely different debate

[wwharton]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

first of all, making this thread in the Live forum is a blatant attempt to get some kind of fight started with somebody. my participation in this thread definitely was not in any way in response to the original post b/c you were just starting trouble. the thread probably should've been locked before the first response.

Second of all, as I stated, my response was to posters (specifically the one in this thread) claiming that ANY game that has players in constant movement mirrors the NBA and ANY game that doesn't have players constantly moving does not. The short answer is, this isn't true, however I went farther than that, and actually only posted b/c of the claim that said poster just watched a game and saw this constant movement which is pretty much just a lie.

Now the statement that players may not move as in run around all the time but they bump and tug and bend over constantly, basically commenting on 10 man motion capturing. No one would deny the wonders 10 man motion capturing can do to a basketball game, but it is very clear that wasn't the initial argument. It's also clear, to be technical that there are LOTS of occassions where outside of breathing and looking back and forth, players really just don't move.

Like Graphik and Monkey, I'm finding it hard to understand the problem. This is just how it is, it doesn't make any game better than any other game. I'm finding it curious that you, proclaimed to be an espn fan, starting this thread to piss off Live fans, and are the main one trying to debate with me a point that whether or not you consider it the better game, ESPN probably portrays the real NBA movement closer. should make a lot of people wonder what your motivation is if they haven't from the first time they opened this thread.

[wwharton]

Re: MAN I LOVED LIVE..............

first of all, making this thread in the Live forum is a blatant attempt to get some kind of fight started with somebody. my participation in this thread definitely was not in any way in response to the original post b/c you were just starting trouble. the thread probably should've been locked before the first response.

Second of all, as I stated, my response was to posters (specifically the one in this thread) claiming that ANY game that has players in constant movement mirrors the NBA and ANY game that doesn't have players constantly moving does not. The short answer is, this isn't true, however I went farther than that, and actually only posted b/c of the claim that said poster just watched a game and saw this constant movement which is pretty much just a lie.

Now the statement that players may not move as in run around all the time but they bump and tug and bend over constantly, basically commenting on 10 man motion capturing. No one would deny the wonders 10 man motion capturing can do to a basketball game, but it is very clear that wasn't the initial argument. It's also clear, to be technical that there are LOTS of occassions where outside of breathing and looking back and forth, players really just don't move.

Like Graphik and Monkey, I'm finding it hard to understand the problem. This is just how it is, it doesn't make any game better than any other game. I'm finding it curious that you, proclaimed to be an espn fan, starting this thread to piss off Live fans, and are the main one trying to debate with me a point that whether or not you consider it the better game, ESPN probably portrays the real NBA movement closer. should make a lot of people wonder what your motivation is if they haven't from the first time they opened this thread.