2020 Offseason Thread

[roadman]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

You can’t finalize a deal for a sign and trade before free agency opens just like Rondo can’t sign with the Hawks until free agency opens.

You can't tell me the Bogdon's agent and the Bucks didn't discuss re-signing Bogdon. And it appears Bogdon's agent has killed some other deals too. There was a leak on one side or the other or both sides.

All 5 hypotheticals were from big market teams, right? lol

Edit- I can agree with you on the agent part.

[itsmb8]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

OJ, I wholeheartedly dont understand your logic. At all.

Basically what i'm understanding from you is players tampering is completely fine but teams tampering is not. Okay, fine. But Bogdan and Giannis are good friends. Maybe Giannis and Bogdan were talking, Bogdan said he'd take less money to play with Giannis, Giannis told management, the Bucks contacted Sacramento about a trade and the Kings agreed because 1) they'd be getting Donte, and 2) they wouldn't be keeping Bogdan anyways. Would that be okay, because it was just two players "talking?"

What about the news today from Matt Babcock on Twitter that the Mavs and Thunder are working on a Danilo Gallinari S&T? I mean, its essentially the exact same situation as Milwaukee and Sacramento, except Danilo is unrestricted.

What about Hayward declining his $34m option with the Celtics? You have to think he knows he already has an offer on the table if he were to do that, and there were reports that the Knicks have already been talking with him.


What really ****ing pisses me off with you is that you hear about this insane situation and immediately think "oop, Bucks ****ed up." Woj was the only one that reported that the deal was actually done. Maybe they were working on a trade with a ballpark estimate of Bogi's eventual salary and Woj misinterpreted it as a done deal.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

OJ, I wholeheartedly dont understand your logic. At all.

Basically what i'm understanding from you is players tampering is completely fine but teams tampering is not. Okay, fine. But Bogdan and Giannis are good friends. Maybe Giannis and Bogdan were talking, Bogdan said he'd take less money to play with Giannis, Giannis told management, the Bucks contacted Sacramento about a trade and the Kings agreed because 1) they'd be getting Donte, and 2) they wouldn't be keeping Bogdan anyways. Would that be okay, because it was just two players "talking?"

What about the news today from Matt Babcock on Twitter that the Mavs and Thunder are working on a Danilo Gallinari S&T? I mean, its essentially the exact same situation as Milwaukee and Sacramento, except Danilo is unrestricted.

What about Hayward declining his $34m option with the Celtics? You have to think he knows he already has an offer on the table if he were to do that, and there were reports that the Knicks have already been talking with him.


What really ****ing pisses me off with you is that you hear about this insane situation and immediately think "oop, Bucks ****ed up." Woj was the only one that reported that the deal was actually done. Maybe they were working on a trade with a ballpark estimate of Bogi's eventual salary and Woj misinterpreted it as a done deal.

I mean have you just chosen to not actually read my other responses? I’ve answered most of this in direct response to you already..

1.) I’m not saying tampering from anybody is “fine”. I’m saying players talk, they are going to recruit behind closed doors, how can you govern what players say to each other in private? If the team itself goes about the trade in the correct manner and nothing is ever publicly said how do you hit a team with tampering?

AD asks for a trade “let’s hit the Lakers with tampering he probably texts LeBron”. Clippers trade for Paul George “let’s hit the Clippers for tampering for making a legal NBA trade because Kawhi probably talked to him”. Or the best one “Let’s charge the Nets for tampering because two free agents signed there and they probably talked about it.”...

Like how/why do you propose those teams get charged with tampering? Put wire taps in players homes, bug their phones and read their texts? If in every instance those teams went about a trade in the correct way how do you pin point that the team did something wrong? Where is your proof?

I’m sure Giannis and Bogdon were talking. Again prove that or at least explain to me how the league is supposed to prove that? They can’t. The issue is the Bucks did a sign and trade with a team before they were allowed to. It’s literally as simple as that. You don’t have to prove that anybody talked to anybody, or persuaded/“tampered” because the Bucks/Kings already told on themselves.

2.) Hayward - “you have to think he already has an offer on the table”.. ok so what team, how much, what’s the offer? So who are we charging with tampering? Again do you suggest the league seizes control of Hayward text/call log from the FBI or something? Regardless Hayward has a player option, he’s not contractually bound by the Celtics. He doesn’t have to necessarily have a “deal in place” so long as he knows teams that can afford to pay him are interested, and should be able to talk to whatever team he wants to because he’s not a restricted free agent contractually bound by a team he’s tampering against. The Knicks/Hawks haven’t announced that they have signed Hayward to a 1 year 35 million dollar deal, so which team has publicly violated league sign/trade protocol?

3.) Gallinari - it’s not essentially the same thing because like you said Gallinari is an unrestricted free agent. He’s not contractually bound to any team, he’s free to go wherever he wants to go. Teams like LAL, LAC, PHI, BKN, DAL, those teams only have the MLE to work with. By default it’s common knowledge that the Mavs would need to do a sign and trade to entice Gallinari to come to them by paying him more than those other teams can. Again, they haven’t publicly agreed to a deal, no money has been mentioned, Gallinari hasn’t done a sign and trade 3 days before its allowed. As an unrestricted free agent it’s Gallo’s choice to do that sign and trade if he wants to, but again it hasn’t been done yet and if it happens when it’s legally allowed to happen who do you hit with tampering?? Dallas just because some guy tweeted about it? Does the league wire tap Dallas’s phones and figure out exactly what was said to see if any specific rules were broken?

4.) It sounds like it’s only “really ****ing pissing you off” because you’re a Bucks fan and you’re refusing to look at this without your Bucks glasses on.. I’m saying it is very likely the Bucks/Kings ****ed up by publicly announcing a trade they aren’t legally allowed to make yet. It hasn’t even been investigated yet, we don’t know that it’s not going to end up exactly like you said it will end up where Woj misinterpreted it, and if that is indeed the case you’re wasting your time being really ****ing pissed off for no reason.

It’s worth noting the league doesn’t voluntarily look into tampering on their own. Typically this is something other teams have to request. Whether that’s the Kings, other teams who had planned on opening sign and trade discussions once they were actually allowed, who knows until we know.


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[itsmb8]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

I mean have you just chosen to not actually read my other responses? I’ve answered most of this in direct response to you already..

1.) I’m not saying tampering from anybody is “fine”. I’m saying players talk, they are going to recruit behind closed doors, how can you govern what players say to each other in private? If the team itself goes about the trade in the correct manner and nothing is ever publicly said how do you hit a team with tampering?

AD asks for a trade “let’s hit the Lakers with tampering he probably texts LeBron”. Clippers trade for Paul George “let’s hit the Clippers for tampering for making a legal NBA trade because Kawhi probably talked to him”. Or the best one “Let’s charge the Nets for tampering because two free agents signed there and they probably talked about it.”...

Like how/why do you propose those teams get charged with tampering? Put wire taps in players homes, bug their phones and read their texts? If in every instance those teams went about a trade in the correct way how do you pin point that the team did something wrong? Where is your proof?

I’m sure Giannis and Bogdon were talking. Again prove that or at least explain to me how the league is supposed to prove that? They can’t. The issue is the Bucks did a sign and trade with a team before they were allowed to. It’s literally as simple as that. You don’t have to prove that anybody talked to anybody, or persuaded/“tampered” because the Bucks/Kings already told on themselves.

2.) Hayward - “you have to think he already has an offer on the table”.. ok so what team, how much, what’s the offer? So who are we charging with tampering? Again do you suggest the league seizes control of Hayward text/call log from the FBI or something? Regardless Hayward has a player option, he’s not contractually bound by the Celtics. He doesn’t have to necessarily have a “deal in place” so long as he knows teams that can afford to pay him are interested, and should be able to talk to whatever team he wants to because he’s not a restricted free agent contractually bound by a team he’s tampering against. The Knicks/Hawks haven’t announced that they have signed Hayward to a 1 year 35 million dollar deal, so which team has publicly violated league sign/trade protocol?

3.) Gallinari - it’s not essentially the same thing because like you said Gallinari is an unrestricted free agent. He’s not contractually bound to any team, he’s free to go wherever he wants to go. Teams like LAL, LAC, PHI, BKN, DAL, those teams only have the MLE to work with. By default it’s common knowledge that the Mavs would need to do a sign and trade to entice Gallinari to come to them by paying him more than those other teams can. Again, they haven’t publicly agreed to a deal, no money has been mentioned, Gallinari hasn’t done a sign and trade 3 days before its allowed. As an unrestricted free agent it’s Gallo’s choice to do that sign and trade if he wants to, but again it hasn’t been done yet and if it happens when it’s legally allowed to happen who do you hit with tampering?? Dallas just because some guy tweeted about it? Does the league wire tap Dallas’s phones and figure out exactly what was said to see if any specific rules were broken?

4.) It sounds like it’s only “really ****ing pissing you off” because you’re a Bucks fan and you’re refusing to look at this without your Bucks glasses on.. I’m saying it is very likely the Bucks/Kings ****ed up by publicly announcing a trade they aren’t legally allowed to make yet. It hasn’t even been investigated yet, we don’t know that it’s not going to end up exactly like you said it will end up where Woj misinterpreted it, and if that is indeed the case you’re wasting your time being really ****ing pissed off for no reason.

It’s worth noting the league doesn’t voluntarily look into tampering on their own. Typically this is something other teams have to request. Whether that’s the Kings, other teams who had planned on opening sign and trade discussions once they were actually allowed, who knows until we know.


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Regarding the AD trade, and Harden currently.. Everyone kinda accepts that isnt gonna happen. Its complete bull**** how a player can be under contract and one day say "I want to play in LA/NY, trade me there now or i'm not gonna play" or essentially just force their way there, but whatever. LA got fined, they'll gladly eat it and move on.

With Hayward and Gallinari, last time I checked Free Agency hasn't opened yet. So technically, teams aren't allowed to talk to players yet. So those two situations are technically tampering because they're talking to players when theyre not allowed to.

And regardless of whether they get penalized or not, the trade is off. Even if they're not technically penalized in the form of lost picks, the trade was voided which is the main issue. All because Woj leaked it a couple days early and other GMs are pissed off because they never had a chance.

Sacramento was okay with the trade, Milwaukee was okay with the trade, Bogdan's first choice was Milwaukee, so whether it happened on Monday or Friday, that doesn't matter. Other GMs being pissed off because "Milwaukee jumped the gun" is irrelevant because he was gonna go to Milwaukee anyways. If Milwaukee wasn't his first choice, this would never have broke because Bogdan would have immediately said he was waiting and there'd be nothing to break. Which is why im pissed off, because this is all bull****.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

Many assumptions, few facts.

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

I would need technical clarification.

Isn't Gallinari technically under contract since free agency hasn't started? So he isn't an unrestricted free agent yet?

Wasn't Heyward technically under contract until he decided (yesterday afternoon) that he would decline his player option? While he was still deciding whether to exercise his player option he was still under contract with the Celtics right? And even then, he isn't technically an unrestricted free agent until free agency starts today at 6:00pm ET? So he is still under contract with the Celtics until today at 6:00pm ET?

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

Regarding the Knicks and the Ed Davis trade, I know they were only two 2nd round picks but that's what we should be doing, getting into the give me your short bad/dumping contracts + picks business.

[ProfessaPackMan]

2020 Offseason Thread

They did it to themselves, how is it crapping on anybody? It is what it is.

There is no tampering laws against two players having the same agent, one picking the other in the All-Star game, the Lakers offering a trade for AD, Ad requesting he wanted to be traded, none of that is illegal and all well within tampering guidelines. Explain to me how it isn't?






How is every sign and trade tampering? That doesn't make any sense at all, and even in this specific case if it happened tomorrow after 6:00 instead of days ago there wouldn't even be an issue with it. This is the ONLY sign and trade regarding a player who's a restricted free agent that has been openly agreed to before the time that such trades are allowed to be agreed to. That is why it is the only thing being investigated. It's not that complicated.

Do all teams have some form of "tampering" to a small degree? Likely so. Not all teams are stupid enough to publicly showcase it. The Bucks ****ed up, it is what it is. Likely nothing will come of it, like others have said it's silly to even investigate it but they can and they are and it's not picking on the small market team it's the small market team looking like fools.

Like I said if you don't see how this is different you just simply don't want to. I still expect nothing to come of it, I think they are just sending a message for it to not happen again.

It’s not that different than before.

They’re being petty over 3 days. I’m not even playing the small market victim card, just calling silliness out like I see it.

And if you or anyone believes this is the first S&T agreement to be made before FA officially started, then y’all are some naive MFers, lol.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

Can someone explain to me why if Bogdan wants to be a Buck, there is anything standing in the way?

[cima]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

Seems to me if the NBA really cared about tampering that they would encourage their media to not talk about "tampered" deals.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

Is that the tampering version of stop testing so the numbers stop going up? Because that wouldn’t stop tampering.

[georgiafan]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

If NY and Atlanta want him I don't see Boston getting any kind of asset for him. It would just be the GM's helping them with trade exception to do them a favor since everyone is the East I don't think I would do that personally. When the Nets helped out GS they got a draft pick out of it. The only other thing would be a salary nobody wants like Julius Randal or Atlanta's new acquired Tony Snell. I think both of those teams are just better off signing him to something like 3 years and 90 million and making the contract front loaded.

The Dallas thing is just me figuring out a team that could want him. I don't see them giving him a long-term deal as I believe they want cap space next offseason. They do have a few real players Boston could get and trade down the line for salary matching purposes.

Bogd i think being on the market does play a role in all of this because I assume most would prefer to pay him 20 a year opposed to Hayward 30.

I think it's Indiana or back to Boston. Those two give him his chance to either go back home or his best shot at winning.

If he wants to go the money route (which nothing surprises me after Horford) then he could go to New York or Atlanta. Maybe New York throws some future picks at Houston and pairs Westbrook with Hayward. Atlanta is intriguing too because I think they could really be a competitive team with a healthy Hayward. Since both can sign him outright then I don't think either of those teams give up much of anything asset-wise. In a S&T Boston would probably just get a large Trade Exception.

I didn't think Hayward in a 1-year deal had much value but re-signed he should net something. Hayward would have some control so my hopes of a S&T with the Kings for Bogdanovic is all but dead. Dallas would be interesting because they're on the come up. I haven't heard much about them wanting him though.

I think all of this is leverage to some point by him I'm just not sure why unless its just to get him to Indiana. The NY stuff with him came out shortly after they declined all those team options.

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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

Seems to me if the NBA really cared about tampering that they would encourage their media to not talk about "tampered" deals.

Which is wild because this is a league that prides itself on player movement(big reason why the league is popular)rumors, gossip, etc.

[roadman]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

And I’m sure they aren’t the only team that has ever talked about moves like this before free agency started.. I get that, it probably happens even more than most would assume, I’m not arguing that. But damn be smart enough to wait 3 more days instead of publicly “finalizing” a trade that’s not even allowed to happen yet.


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There we go.

Normally, agents report to Woj and Woj drops his bombs.

I have no idea how it was transpired on Monday.

I found this online:

Neither the Bucks nor the Kings said anything officially about the Bogdanovic trade. Whether an opposing team reported a possible tampering violation before the trade or if the league is basing the investigation off of Wojnarowski's premature report is not yet known. Somewhat similar moves in the past have been made without any tampering violations found to have been made. In 2018, for instance, Chris Paul was slated to be a free agent, but instead opted into the final year of his contract and was dealt to the Houston Rockets. Reporting later indicated that Paul was recruited to the Rockets by James Harden, but common sense at the time should have dictated tampering. How could Paul have known the Rockets were interested in trading for him when he opted in otherwise?

Tampering is a somewhat frequent occurrence in the NBA, but investigating it fully is nearly impossible. Even in this instance, proving that the Bucks contacted Bogdanovic would be extremely difficult. The Bucks and Kings could easily argue that they are not responsible for Wojnarowski's reporting, and that it may have been false, or that they merely agreed to the framework of a trade that would have been contingent upon negotiations that hadn't yet taken place between the Bucks and Kings. There probably isn't a smoking gun here. It seems highly unlikely that the Bucks would have communicated with Bogdanovic in writing, so finding definitive wrongdoing would seem to be nearly impossible.

And this is where I will indulge in the small market victim card, conspiracy or not:

But as the Bucks seek to pick up the pieces and salvage their offseason after seemingly losing out on Bogdanovic, this cloud hanging over their head is less than ideal as they attempt to convince Giannis Antetokounmpo to sign a contract extension.

I wouldn't call Bucks fans frustrated, it goes deeper than that. I would call it embarrassing and enraging at all parties involved.

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2020 Offseason Thread

Not sure what you mean by "their media", ESPN et al don't work for the NBA (don't laugh). I'm sure the NBA would prefer that NBA Draft picks weren't spoiled beforehand and yet Woj et al do it anyway.