Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

[Complex]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

Most boxers can hurt you but that wasnt your point. You said that Hopkins was concerned about his power and thats why he held and I pointed out that he held because he always holds no matter who his opponent is. Thats the way Hopkins fights and it had nothing to do with being concerned about Joe's power.

Seriously, there is a clear double standard on this site. Floyd gets accused of ducking fighters when he's fought former champs Castillo, Corrales, Oscar, Judah and Hatton all in there prime (except for Oscar). Joe gets praised for fighting one top flight fighter in Kessler, one overrated fighter in Lacy and a 43 year old Hopkins. I dont mind praising Joe because he was impressive in the Kessler fight but lets call it both ways.

Well said. For Floyd, throw in Baldomir and Chavez.

[allBthere]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

Most boxers can hurt you but that wasnt your point. You said that Hopkins was concerned about his power and thats why he held and I pointed out that he held because he always holds no matter who his opponent is. Thats the way Hopkins fights and it had nothing to do with being concerned about Joe's power.

Seriously, there is a clear double standard on this site. Floyd gets accused of ducking fighters when he's fought former champs Castillo, Corrales, Oscar, Judah and Hatton all in there prime (except for Oscar). Joe gets praised for fighting one top flight fighter in Kessler, one overrated fighter in Lacy and a 43 year old Hopkins. I dont mind praising Joe because he was impressive in the Kessler fight but lets call it both ways.

I dont think Castillo, Corrales, Judah or Hatton are 'great's (especially Hatton, he is wayyyyy overrated; good personality though)
People are blaming Calzaghe for staying in Europe until now, whree boxing is very very big business...but not saying the same thing about USA fighters staying in the states because you automatically assume USA boxers are the best- They are not...Look at all of the belts held right now in all weight division and try to say that USA fighters are vastly superior.

[allBthere]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

Power against who? Please understand that KOs include TKOs, referee stopped fights (a norm in Europe) and quittingon the stool. A high KO percentage can be deceiving esp against a fighter like Joe. If he was knocking blocks off of fighters for years, and putting guys on their backs.....trust me there would be more hype around him regardless of where he fought. But there is not.

So I guess Kessler doesn't hit hard because of your 'points'?

referee stoppages in thestates are a NORM in USA too!
Who has bernard had power against...the last time I saw any power from his was a body shot to ODLH - that to me is placement and timing, doesn't have to be super powerful to do that - you hit someone well in the liver and they're effed.

I still think that Bernard and Hatton should be DQ'd almost every fight they have because they break the rules constantly, and the refs let them. Boxing would be more exciting if they were forced to change their dirty tactics because they know they'd get dq'd for doign so. There was a fight leading up to the floyd fight where I thought Hatton should have lost for sure, but he got a decision...even though I believe he was out-landed etc..

[Complex]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

I dont think Castillo, Corrales, Judah or Hatton are 'great's (especially Hatton, he is wayyyyy overrated; good personality though)
People are blaming Calzaghe for staying in Europe until now, whree boxing is very very big business...but not saying the same thing about USA fighters staying in the states because you automatically assume USA boxers are the best- They are not...Look at all of the belts held right now in all weight division and try to say that USA fighters are vastly superior.

I do not think that folks are saying USA are the best boxers, even though historically that is the case. What he is saying is that everyone he has named was either in their prime, top of the division, or A-list.

[Complex]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

So I guess Kessler doesn't hit hard because of your 'points'?

referee stoppages in thestates are a NORM in USA too!
Who has bernard had power against...the last time I saw any power from his was a body shot to ODLH - that to me is placement and timing, doesn't have to be super powerful to do that - you hit someone well in the liver and they're effed.

I still think that Bernard and Hatton should be DQ'd almost every fight they have because they break the rules constantly, and the refs let them. Boxing would be more exciting if they were forced to change their dirty tactics because they know they'd get dq'd for doign so. There was a fight leading up to the floyd fight where I thought Hatton should have lost for sure, but he got a decision...even though I believe he was out-landed etc..

No, my points are that a KO percentage does not mean a fighter packs a punch.

[JayBee74]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

In the world of boxing, Joe is still virtually unknown. He has never been even in the P4P discussion. He pretty much spent 95% of his career in this home country. 1 fight outside of his comfort zone does not change that.

Where do you get this stuff? Calzage's a virtual unknown in his own sport? Now if you said he wasn't a household name.........As far as not in the Pound For Pound (P4P) discussion, many lists have him in the Top 5, including Ring Magazine.

And that is the overwhelming argument by many. Not that Joe was dancing and jabbing and moving, and rocking Hopkins, but more so that people feel Hopkins did not throw enough. And some judges like aggression, regardless if itis landing or not. There were several times the crowd "oooo and ahhhed" and Joe swung and missed.

So ultimately what many are saying is that Hopkins gave the fight away, not that Joe came and dominated and earned a hard fought victory.

Like Hopkins could do anything else in this fight. He was incapable of throwing anything resembling a combination, let alone landing one. He was noticeably fatigued later in the fight, and where is the credit to Joe for making Bernard work harder? And yet you say that BHop blew it by not "throwing enough". His reflexes and stamina prevented him from throwing more punches, not a game plan gone astray.

Most boxers can hurt you but that wasnt your point. You said that Hopkins was concerned about his power and thats why he held and I pointed out that he held because he always holds no matter who his opponent is. Thats the way Hopkins fights and it had nothing to do with being concerned about Joe's power.

Nah, I "supposed it", more a knock on Hopkins "half court defense" than anything to do with Joe's power. Bottom line-Hopkins holds more as the quality of his opponents goes up.

[allBthere]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

No, my points are that a KO percentage does not mean a fighter packs a punch.

I believe that KO percentage does in fact mean that a fighter packs a punch. The biggest punchers in the history of boxing have very high KO percentages.

also about these european fighter... I could argue that they are not names to you guys or 'top' fighters, because of your ethnocentrism attitude as a result of being americans and living in the USA. I think it's fair to say that Joe is a 'top' fighter, and if you look at his opponents combined record, it's pretty impressive. Joe didn't get so good beating cream puffs

lets look at bhop now...his biggest name oppenents are all his last 5 fights, and he's lost 3 of them. Before that you go to his win over DLH in 04, then tito in 01....now scroll way way down to 93 when he lost to roy jones. This is somehow legendary compared to joe's opponents????

His opponent record is similar to Calzaghe's

[aholbert32]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

I believe that KO percentage does in fact mean that a fighter packs a punch. The biggest punchers in the history of boxing have very high KO percentages.

also about these european fighter... I could argue that they are not names to you guys or 'top' fighters, because of your ethnocentrism attitude as a result of being americans and living in the USA. I think it's fair to say that Joe is a 'top' fighter, and if you look at his opponents combined record, it's pretty impressive. Joe didn't get so good beating cream puffs

lets look at bhop now...his biggest name oppenents are all his last 5 fights, and he's lost 3 of them. Before that you go to his win over DLH in 04, then tito in 01....now scroll way way down to 93 when he lost to roy jones. This is somehow legendary compared to joe's opponents????

His opponent record is similar to Calzaghe's

Joe's has one win over an in his prime elite fighter and thats Kessler. BHop has a win over 3: Oscar, Tito and Winky. Also he has victories over Tarver and Glen Johnson. Joe other "big" victories are over an overrated Lacy, Robin Reid, two contestants on the Contender and a 43 yr old Hopkins. To say they are similar is ridiculous.

[aholbert32]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

I dont think Castillo, Corrales, Judah or Hatton are 'great's (especially Hatton, he is wayyyyy overrated; good personality though)
People are blaming Calzaghe for staying in Europe until now, whree boxing is very very big business...but not saying the same thing about USA fighters staying in the states because you automatically assume USA boxers are the best- They are not...Look at all of the belts held right now in all weight division and try to say that USA fighters are vastly superior.

Lets look at Floyd's top opponents: Oscar, Hatton, Judah, Corrales, Castillo, Genaro Hernandez, Baldomir.

Lets look at Joe's: Kessler, Hopkins, Reid, Eubank, Bika, Lacy, Manfredo.

I would argue that Floyd's opponents are MUCH better.

My problem is that he's 36 and it took him 15 yrs to get the stones to fight in the States. Shoot, he's only fought outside of the UK once before that and that was 3 yrs ago. I'm not saying that he had to abandoned the UK but 15 yrs and you never fight outside of your home country? And when you do its against a 43 yr old fighter? That doesnt impress me.

This isnt to knock to Joe but I would like to see him test his skills against a in his prime elite fighter outside of the UK. If he fights Pavlik or Taylor, then I'll shut up but until then I'm not impressed.

[allBthere]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

Joe's has one win over an in his prime elite fighter and thats Kessler. BHop has a win over 3: Oscar, Tito and Winky. Also he has victories over Tarver and Glen Johnson. Joe other "big" victories are over an overrated Lacy, Robin Reid, two contestants on the Contender and a 43 yr old Hopkins. To say they are similar is ridiculous.

winky was controversial, and oscan and tito were out of their confort weight

article: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=15311&more=1

from 'east-side boxing' before the fight

Is Hopkins’ Boxing Record Really That Much Better Than Calzaghe’s?

19.04.08 - By James Barlow: I’ve read and heard a lot of talk on various boxing web sites debating the boxing records of Bernard Hopkins compared to Joe Calzaghe. Even Hopkins and Calzaghe have also been discussing each others records. Everyone has an opinion but I have been analyzing each boxer’s credentials and want to expel a few myths..

Firstly was Tito Trinidad comfortable at middleweight? Hopkins and his fans seem to talk the Trinidad fight up a lot. Hopkins has been quoted in identifying the fact that he was a major underdog in the fight and many class this fight as Hopkins overcoming a fellow boxing superstar and future hall of famer. However there are some out there who try and discredit this by stating that Tito was a natural welterweight and was never really comfortable at middle weight. So was Tito a middleweight? Yero Moody discussed this in his recent article on ESB (Hopklins v. Calzaghe: The Breakdown and the Prediction). Moody reasoned that Tito was natural at middleweight because he had beaten middleweight William Joppy. This for me is like saying Roy Jones Jr was a natural heavy weight because he beat John Ruiz. But let’s look at the facts. Tito spent his whole career up until 2000 below the light middle weight division. His last fight at welter weight was a victory over De La Hoya. He then fought at light Middle where his managed to take his power up with him and defeated David Reid who is 5”9 tall, Mamadou Thiam also 5”9 and Vargas 5”10. Then he moved up to take on Joppy who is 5”9. Then came the money spinner against Hopkins which he lost... Hopkins is 6”1 tall and is now very comfortable a light heavy weight. Tito carried on toiling above light middle and has won just 2 of his last 5. In my opinion in his last fight against Roy Jones Jr he gave a very good account of himself for a boxer who had been out of the ring for almost 3 years but you could see due to the size difference between him and Jones Jr he was never going to be effective. I don’t doubt for one second the skill of Trinidad, in fact I would love to see him get back down to light middle where he could be effective again and carry on boxing. But was he natural at middleweight? Clearly not.

Next up, Joe Calzaghe has only ever fought sub standard European opposition. I really don’t get this one. Calzaghe has fought Omar Sheika from the U.S, Charles Brewer (former I.B.F Super middleweight champion), Byron Mitchell (2 time W.B.A Champion and would be I.B.F champion were it not for a dreadful decision against Sven Otkke in Germany) and the supposed future of boxing and heavy favorite Jeff Lacey (was current I.B.F Champion). All of the above were in my opinion a good class of American opposition. And although Kessler was European anyone who might suggest he was sub standard does not know about boxing. Chris Eubank although past his peak, Robin Reid, Richie Woodall and Sakio Bika were all also in my opinion of a good standard, three of these have held versions of the super middleweight title at some point in their careers. So has Joe Calzaghe only fought sub standard European opposition clearly not.

So is Hopkins record is better than Calzaghe’s, or vise versa. I’ve got these to dead level in my opinion. Yes Hopkins has fought the better skilled boxers and future hall of famers in De La Hoya and Trinidad, but yes they were out of their weight classes. If B-Hop had have avenged his lose to Jones Jr and have beat Calzaghe around the same period instead of fighting these blown up Welters then I think his record to the boxing purist would look a lot better. However you still have to give him some credit for these victories as with their skills even out their comfort zones De La Hoya and Trinidad still posed a threat. Then you come to Calzaghe. No he has not fought any future hall of famers. But he has fought the best at his weight class and has never come unstuck.

Who’s got the best record? Who cares! These are both mega stars of boxing, with millions fans over both sides of the pond. This is boxing at its very best and I can’t wait!

[allBthere]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

Lets look at Floyd's top opponents: Oscar, Hatton, Judah, Corrales, Castillo, Genaro Hernandez, Baldomir.

Lets look at Joe's: Kessler, Hopkins, Reid, Eubank, Bika, Lacy, Manfredo.

I would argue that Floyd's opponents are MUCH better.

My problem is that he's 36 and it took him 15 yrs to get the stones to fight in the States. Shoot, he's only fought outside of the UK once before that and that was 3 yrs ago. I'm not saying that he had to abandoned the UK but 15 yrs and you never fight outside of your home country? And when you do its against a 43 yr old fighter? That doesnt impress me.

This isnt to knock to Joe but I would like to see him test his skills against a in his prime elite fighter outside of the UK. If he fights Pavlik or Taylor, then I'll shut up but until then I'm not impressed.

It's not that I completely disagree, but let's stop the "joe has only fought crap" routine...it's not true and doesn't make sense. By pointing out floyds opponents, I'm saying you can take almost any boxer's record and show that they've barely fought any 'top' opponents...that's just how it goes most of the time...it's not like floyd's list is more star-studded than anyone esle in history by a long shot. I don't think Taylor would be a problem for Joe in a UD really.

From another thread i'd rather see abraham, calzaghe, pavlik, and miranda all fight each other..it would be cool to see ODLH fight calzaghe actually

[JayBee74]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

Lets look at Floyd's top opponents: Oscar, Hatton, Judah, Corrales, Castillo, Genaro Hernandez, Baldomir.

Lets look at Joe's: Kessler, Hopkins, Reid, Eubank, Bika, Lacy, Manfredo.

I would argue that Floyd's opponents are MUCH better.

My problem is that he's 36 and it took him 15 yrs to get the stones to fight in the States. Shoot, he's only fought outside of the UK once before that and that was 3 yrs ago. I'm not saying that he had to abandoned the UK but 15 yrs and you never fight outside of your home country? And when you do its against a 43 yr old fighter? That doesnt impress me.

This isnt to knock to Joe but I would like to see him test his skills against a in his prime elite fighter outside of the UK. If he fights Pavlik or Taylor, then I'll shut up but until then I'm not impressed.

I'd like to see it when you really are knocking Joe. The bottom line is Hopkins lost. You and Complex are making more excuses for Hopkins then he could come up with himself, and he's a hall of famer at bellyaching. Let's tear apart Joe's KO %, his competition, his punching power, his lack of courage for never fighting outside his homeland (Hopkins has had 2 fights outside of the US, the last 15 years ago), his misremembering if he was hurt by the knockdown, his chin, etc., etc. Complex went so far as to say Calzage isn't in a "best fighter pound for pound discussion". Maybe at the Calzage's Haters Club, but not the general boxing fan.

[fistofrage]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

I'd like to see it when you really are knocking Joe. The bottom line is Hopkins lost. You and Complex are making more excuses for Hopkins then he could come up with himself, and he's a hall of famer at bellyaching. Let's tear apart Joe's KO %, his competition, his punching power, his lack of courage for never fighting outside his homeland (Hopkins has had 2 fights outside of the US, the last 15 years ago), his misremembering if he was hurt by the knockdown, his chin, etc., etc. Complex went so far as to say Calzage isn't in a "best fighter pound for pound discussion". Maybe at the Calzage's Haters Club, but not the general boxing fan.

Bottom line, Hopkins said he'd never let a white boy beat him, but he lets everyone beat him. He let Taylor beat him, he let JC beat him. When you are only landing 7 to 10 punches a round, you pretty much will let anyone beat you. Its because he's past his prime. He was active after taking 5 minutes of rest late in the fight because of the low blow. It didn't hurt him, he needed a breather. I can't blame him, he's in darn fine shape for a 43 year old, but he is 43. I hope that's the last fight for the Snoozacutioner.

[aholbert32]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

I'd like to see it when you really are knocking Joe. The bottom line is Hopkins lost. You and Complex are making more excuses for Hopkins then he could come up with himself, and he's a hall of famer at bellyaching. Let's tear apart Joe's KO %, his competition, his punching power, his lack of courage for never fighting outside his homeland (Hopkins has had 2 fights outside of the US, the last 15 years ago), his misremembering if he was hurt by the knockdown, his chin, etc., etc. Complex went so far as to say Calzage isn't in a "best fighter pound for pound discussion". Maybe at the Calzage's Haters Club, but not the general boxing fan.

What are you talking about? I even said earlier that I had Joe winning the fight by 1 point! I said months ago on this forum that people would give Joe more credit then he deserved for beating a 43 yr old Hopkins because of his name among other things. Guess what? Its happening right now. I never disputed he won because I thought he won. I'm just not that impressed watching him beat a 43 yr old Hopkins.

Also, Every thing I've mentioned is backed by proof. Do you really consider Robin Reid, Sakio Bika and Peter Manfredo to be world class competition? Isnt it true that he never fought outside the UK until 3 yrs ago and it took him 15 yrs to come to the US? Also ist not like Hopkins fought every fight in Philly. He fought in plenty of places where the crowd was against him. Cant say the same for Joe. Joe has 45 wins and 43 of them were with a home crowd behind him. I dont think you say that for many fighters in boxing history.

I like how you ignored the first part of my post. Its ridiculous that people call fighters like Floyd a coward when he has fought 5 world class champs (all multiple belt holders at different weight classes) but praise Joe when he has been a protected fighter up until 2 yrs ago.

[JayBee74]

Re: Countdown To Calzage-Hopkins 20 days away.

What are you talking about? I even said earlier that I had Joe winning the fight by 1 point! I said months ago on this forum that people would give Joe more credit then he deserved for beating a 43 yr old Hopkins because of his name among other things. Guess what? Its happening right now. I never disputed he won because I thought he won. I'm just not that impressed watching him beat a 43 yr old Hopkins.

Also, Every thing I've mentioned is backed by proof. Do you really consider Robin Reid, Sakio Bika and Peter Manfredo to be world class competition? Isnt it true that he never fought outside the UK until 3 yrs ago and it took him 15 yrs to come to the US? Also ist not like Hopkins fought every fight in Philly. He fought in plenty of places where the crowd was against him. Cant say the same for Joe. Joe has 45 wins and 43 of them were with a home crowd behind him. I dont think you say that for many fighters in boxing history.

I like how you ignored the first part of my post. Its ridiculous that people call fighters like Floyd a coward when he has fought 5 world class champs (all multiple belt holders at different weight classes) but praise Joe when he has been a protected fighter up until 2 yrs ago.

So you gave Calzage the fight by a point, you are still making excuses for Hopkins (age), and your anti Calzage slant continues, by taking away from his victory before the fight happens("I said months ago on this forum that people would give Joe more credit then he deserved for beating a 43 yr old Hopkins because of his name among other things."). So if Joe wins he doesn't deserve any credit for doing it, and he he loses he's definitely an overrated bum. Ignore the fact that an over 40 Hopkins had convincing wins over guys like Tarver and Winky Wright.