Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

It certainly does.

So my question to you is, why are you not okay with taking away a physical skill like take down defense, but you are with taking away multiple mental skills like observation, killer instinct, etc?
- Not taking. Adding.


Are you kidding me? Knowing whether or not you're ahead of the score card is the single most relevant piece of information a fighter can have. It doesn't affect a specific decision, it affects all decisions.
- Do you really fight very differently when you're winning? And do you think estimating who's winning is harder than estimating precise stamina values? I find stamina to be harder to estimate and to influence my specific decisions more.

Seriously though. Correct, we can't hear breathing, we also don't have full control over our limbs. It's a game, there are limitations.
- Maybe the mics overblow it on broadcasts, but I would expect fighters to hear heavy breathing from the opponent's when grappling. I really don't know, though. Maybe it's not viable in a loud arena. Indeed there are limitations. I don't think the lack of these things are flaws in the game. My point is thatremoving the bars doesn't make things equal to real life. It results in less info. It makes it closer to real life in the amount of info, probably. I did not dispute that, though it probably sounded like I did.

Just because it's not literally real life isn't a justification to give everyone the equivalent of a super power.
- That is not the justification.

You're now literally using our argument..

Your coach gives you a rough idea of how the round went. Whether you won or lost. If your opponent is getting tired etc.

Since we don't have coaches in real life, we now have less info than the fighters. Therefore we should have 100% accurate scorecards that tell us how the round went.

Can you not see how this is the exact same argument you're making in favor of stamina meters?
- It's pretty close. But not quite. The scorecards matter provides the same info (not less). And we can easily estimate it well enough so that our strategy will hardly be nullified by a bad estimation. The bars matter would provide less info and makes things very hard to estimate, greatly and often nullifying good tactics.

............................

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

- Not taking. Adding.

Unless you don't think gauging your opponent's conditioning is a skill some fighters are better at than others (spoiler alert: it is), that's simply not true. And I know you don't think that because you and others have argued that removing bars makes it harder for casuals, thus admitting there is a degree of skill involved.

You might be adding a different skill Ie: looking at meters, but it's inarguable that you're removing an important skill that distinguishes the average MMA fighter from the elites.

- Do you really fight very differently when you're winning?

Yes. As do real fighters.

And do you think estimating who's winning is harder than estimating precise stamina values? I find stamina to be harder to estimate and to influence my specific decisions more.

Stamina is significantly easier to estimate because it's consistent. The judging on the other hand..

- Maybe the mics overblow it on broadcasts, but I would expect fighters to hear heavy breathing from the opponent's when grappling. I really don't know, though. Maybe it's not viable in a loud arena.

You hear breathing, you see your opponent sweat, you feel their power diminish in grappling exchanges, but none of that is anywhere near as accurate as a bar.

Like I said, some people show these signs in round two, then keep up that pace until the 5th round is over. You never really know for sure.

Indeed there are limitations. I don't think the lack of these things are flaws in the game. My point is thatremoving the bars doesn't make things equal to real life. It results in less info.

We have 20/20 vision of our opponents conditioning with bars.
Real MMA fighters have a blurry idea of their opponents condition. The more perceptive they are, the better their estimate.
We have a slightly blurrier idea of our opponents condition without bars. The more perceptive we are, the better our estimate.

You're making less info sound like it's bad when it's not. It's a step towards what the fighters experience.

The kind of tactical advantage meters bring with them simply does not exist in MMA.

- That is not the justification.

You can't just isolate that phrase and reply to it. It was part of a larger point.

- It's pretty close. But not quite. The scorecards matter provides the same info (not less).

You're missing the point. The meters were added to compensate for our lack of being able to hear breathing and whatever subtle cues we can pick up that allow us to estimate our opponents condition.

So scorecards should be added to compensate for our lack of a coach that can fill us in on whether or not we likely did or did not win the round.

In both cases we're giving perfect information when no such thing is available to real fighters. The only difference between the two is that meters are already in the game.

You're being extremely inconsistent right now.

And we can easily estimate it well enough so that our strategy will hardly be nullified by a bad estimation.

I can't. And "casuals" definitely can't.

Also, thinking you're ahead and just need to survive, when in fact you're even and need to win will make you is an example of a bad estimation that happens all the time. Are you telling me that your strategy to just survive a round is the same as when you have to win? Let alone trying to finish your opponent.

The bars matter would provide less info and makes things very hard to estimate, greatly and often nullifying good tactics.

Same for scorecards. This is one analogy you can't escape from. You're going to have to to come up with an argument that doesn't make you contradict yourself. x_x

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Unless you don't think gauging your opponent's conditioning is a skill some fighters are better at than others (spoiler alert: it is), that's simply not true. And I know you don't think that because you and others have argued that removing bars makes it harder for casuals, thus admitting there is a degree of skill involved.

. . .

Same for scorecards. This is one analogy you can't escape from. You're going to have to to come up with an argument that doesn't make you contradict yourself. x_x

This is an example of the fallacious logic these nubile young men are using. You can't argue with them because they simply don't think they can be wrong and fail to see even basic logical pitfalls.

Making something harder does NOT inherently mean there is skill involved. In this particular case, I do believe there is a degree of guesswork that could be considered "skill". But to assume that if something is made harder it MUST mean it takes skill is illogical and not true. I don't know why or how you would've made that mental leap unless you were desperate to be "right".

In addition to that, assuming a greater amount of skill will inherently impact the game positively is another fallacy. It doesn't take into account aspects such as, I don't know,. . . fun?

As for the "scorecards", Solid has already provided a good explanation. If you can't see the nuance in that particular argument, that's on you.

People who want to be right don't want to have a conversation, they want to beat you into admitting they are right.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

This is an example of the fallacious logic these nubile young men are using. You can't argue with them because they simply don't think they can be wrong and fail to see even basic logical pitfalls.

Making something harder does NOT inherently mean there is skill involved.
In this particular case, I do believe there is a degree of guesswork that could be considered "skill". But to assume that if something is made harder it MUST mean it takes skill is illogical and not true. I don't know why or how you would've made that mental leap unless you were desperate to be "right"

Ehh? I haven't gone through your entire post yet but you definitely don't strike me as the embodiment of reason yourself buddy. You accuse me of fallacious reasoning only to immediately follow your accusation with a straw man of my argument, which is itself a fallacy. Kind of ironic, but you do you man!

Anyway, I don't think I'm infallible. I'm bound to have some ideas that I didn't think through well enough that are comfortably sitting in a mental blind spot. By being exposed to opposing ideas we're given the opportunity to examine our views from a different perspective and in some cases, shed light on those blind spots. It's how we grow as people. So disagreement isn't just something I'm fine with, I welcome it with open arms!

That said, though I appreciate your enthusiasm, could you at least make sure you actually properly understand what my arguments are before you jump into the mix? Especially if you're going to be hostile about it.

If you actually followed our conversation you'd have realized that my argument was never rooted in whether or not something is more or less skillful, that's actually Altair.

Even though I do believe that there's skill in accurately gauging your opponent. It was never the crux of my argument. I argued in favor of realism.

We only went there because Altair insisted we would lower the skill level of the game by removing meters. When in fact, it would just require a different skill set. It's not at all obvious whether or not it would require more or less skill so arguing either way is only going to lead to an endless back and forth.

By the way, you called it guesswork but I strongly disagree with that description. That's like saying high stakes poker is "guessing".

As for the "scorecards", Solid has already provided a good explanation. If you can't see the nuance in that particular argument, that's on you.

He really didn't.

The crux of his argument was "Meters make the game more skillful and impact strategy positively". So I came up with the scoreboard example to see if he was intellectually consistent. If he was, he'd argue in favor of scoreboards too. Instead, he pivoted to:

"Not including them doesn't take anything away and reflects real life" <- Paraphrased. Not an actual quote.

And I actually agree with him. But admitting that exposes the fact that he's special pleading in favor of meters, which is fallacious.

People who want to be right don't want to have a conversation, they want to beat you into admitting they are right.

Smh..

[edit]

Someohw missed this part of your post:

In addition to that, assuming a greater amount of skill will inherently impact the game positively is another fallacy. It doesn't take into account aspects such as, I don't know,. . . fun?

Good thing I didn't, ey?

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Ehh? I haven't gone through your entire post yet but you definitely don't strike me as the embodiment of reason yourself buddy. You accuse me of fallacious reasoning only to immediately follow your accusation with a straw man of my argument, which is itself a fallacy. Kind of ironic, but you do you man!



Anyway, I don't think I'm infallible. I'm bound to have some ideas that I didn't think through well enough that are comfortably sitting in a mental blind spot. By being exposed to opposing ideas we're given the opportunity to examine our views from a different perspective and in some cases, shed light on those blind spots. It's how we grow as people. So disagreement isn't just something I'm fine with, I welcome it with open arms!



That said, though I appreciate your enthusiasm, could you at least make sure you actually properly understand what my arguments are before you jump into the mix? Especially if you're going to be hostile about it.



If you actually followed our conversation you'd have realized that my argument was never rooted in whether or not something is more or less skillful, that's actually Altair.



Even though I do believe that there's skill in accurately gauging your opponent. It was never the crux of my argument. I argued in favor of realism.



We only went there because Altair insisted we would lower the skill level of the game by removing meters. When in fact, it would just require a different skill set. It's not at all obvious whether or not it would require more or less skill so arguing either way is only going to lead to an endless back and forth.



By the way, you called it guesswork but I strongly disagree with that description. That's like saying high stakes poker is "guessing".







He really didn't.



The crux of his argument was "Meters make the game more skillful and impact strategy positively". So I came up with the scoreboard example to see if he was intellectually consistent. If he was, he'd argue in favor of scoreboards too. Instead, he pivoted to:



"Not including them doesn't take anything away and reflects real life" <- Paraphrased. Not an actual quote.



And I actually agree with him. But admitting that exposes the fact that he's special pleading in favor of meters, which is fallacious.







Smh..



[edit]



Someohw missed this part of your post:







Good thing I didn't, ey?

>Literally quotes you.
>”Strawman!”

I wasn’t assuming that to be the crux of your argument, only using that particular line of reasoning to provide evidence of logical inconsistency.

My whole gripe is the people in favor of this change want it without even being tested or worked into. They think shutting the meters off right away will leave everything dandy and great. It’s not realistic. The game simply wasn’t made for that at this moment. I don’t think there are enough visual and auditory cues, especially on the ground. I mean for god’s sake they had to jury rig low stamina models from a heavyweight stance animation. Dave had a similar response and the OP calls it “a weird reason”. I haven’t read the whole thread but I see that many of the yes votes are cut from that same cloth. A viewpoint rooted in rejection of outside input.

My frustrations have been described as rude and hostile, which is ridiculous. I’m only pointing out what I see from my standing. I’m not telling anyone to go **** themselves or anything.


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[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

>Literally quotes you.
>”Strawman!”

Me: There's skill involved in gauging your opponent's conditioning without meters. <-- A rejection of Altair's claim that removing meters removes skill. Something you seem to agree with.

You: Making something harder does NOT inherently mean there is skill involved. To assume that if something is made harder it MUST mean it takes skill is illogical and not true.

Me: That's not what I said.

You: Yes it is, I literally quoted you!

I wasn’t assuming that to be the crux of your argument, only using that particular line of reasoning to provide evidence of logical inconsistency.

You didn't even properly understand my position, let alone argue against it. So to suggest you came even remotely close to what would constitute evidence against the validity of my position, which is a step further still, is a bit absurd.

My whole gripe is the people in favor of this change want it without even being tested or worked into. They think shutting the meters off right away will leave everything dandy and great. It’s not realistic. The game simply wasn’t made for that at this moment.

Oh look, more straw man.

I don't know who you're arguing with, but it's definitely not me.

My frustrations have been described as rude and hostile, which is ridiculous. I’m only pointing out what I see from my standing.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I’m not telling anyone to go **** themselves or anything.

You pretty much called me dishonest, thickheaded, arrogant and stupid. Not in so many words, but that was definitely the gist of it. Which I'm totally fine with by the way. I'm not so thin-skinned to be affected by things like that and if that's how you see me, by all means, let me know.

It's just that, you can't then be surprised that I call you hostile.. Because you are..

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

And I know you don't think that because you and others have argued that removing bars makes it harder for casuals, thus admitting there is a degree of skill involved.

That directly implies that you believe if something is harder, it takes more skill. There is no strawman. If you don’t mean that, word it better. You can’t say I’m making a strawman when I’m using the words you wrote.

And you are absolutely right I’m not arguing with you specifically. I was making commentary on the overall zeitgeist in this topic.


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[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

That directly implies that you believe if something is harder, it takes more skill. There is no strawman. If you don’t mean that, word it better. You can’t say I’m making a strawman when I’m using the words you wrote.

You're failing the reading comprehension class here buddy, read it again.

1) Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about "Things being harder by definition taking more skill"
2) I was rehashing Altair's argument, not stating my own. I clearly said:
You and others have argued that...


What I was pointing out is that he's holding contradictory positions.

You can't both make the argument that no meters favor hardcore players, while simultaneously arguing meters don't remove certain skill based elements.

So again, if you're going to argue against me, don't put up ridiculous straw men please.

If you're unsure, ask questions. If you don't want to ask questions I suggest you carefully read through the thread before responding. Or you know, make a fool out of yourself like you've been doing, that's okay too.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

You're failing the reading comprehension class here buddy, read it again.



1) Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about "Things being harder by definition taking more skill"

2) I was rehashing Altair's argument, not stating my own. I clearly said:

You and others have argued that...





What I was pointing out is that he's holding contradictory positions.



You can't both make the argument that no meters favor hardcore players, while simultaneously arguing meters don't remove certain skill based elements.



So again, if you're going to argue against me, don't put up ridiculous straw men please.



If you're unsure, ask questions. If you don't want to ask questions I suggest you carefully read through the thread before responding. Or you know, make a fool out of yourself like you've been doing, that's okay too.

You just aren’t on the level you think you are. But it’s fine.


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[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

You just aren’t on the level you think you are. But it’s fine.

Projection at its finest.

There's no shame in admitting you're wrong. But you're too prideful for that I see.

Either way, Merry Christmas buddy, have a nice day.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Projection at its finest.

You would be great friends with Haz.


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[Acebaldwin]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

@RetractedMonkey

See, my reply to dave was done tongue-in-cheek, just a bit of banter, Dave is no stranger to self-derision, so i'm sure he can take a little banter on his 2d side perspective POV argument. Yours on the contrary are voluntarily made with enough condescension to make someone puke.

Do stfu and stay out of conversations if you feel so much out of place that you need to insult by generalising the majority of the community from what you deem I am.

Either way, Happy Holidays. Seeing how you've been in the last week or so of 2017, I wish you find the attention you seem to lack so much of in the coming year.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

@RetractedMonkey

See, my reply to dave was done tongue-in-cheek, just a bit of banter, Dave is no stranger to self-derision, so i'm sure he can take a little banter on his 2d side perspective POV argument. Yours on the contrary are voluntarily made with enough condescension to make someone puke.

Do stfu and stay out of conversations if you feel so much out of place that you need to insult by generalising the majority of the community from what you deem I am.

Either way, Happy Holidays. Seeing how you've been in the last week or so of 2017, I wish you find the attention you seem to lack so much of in the coming year.

Oh yes, please, give me attention. This is the internet, I'm not going to treat you with the same social graces I would if you were in front of me. I don't know you, so I'm going to tell you exactly how I feel about you. There is no malice or hostility involved. Just my own personal truth. I know it can be a bit jarring, but you don't know me and I'm not interested in making friends. Try not to take it so personally.

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I really hope this is implemented - game would feel much different, and matches would play out a lot differently (much more realistic). This is my Christmas wish now that Nog is in.

Please remove the opponents HUD! Thank you all and Merry Christmas!

[Dave_S]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

@RetractedMonkey

See, my reply to dave was done tongue-in-cheek, just a bit of banter, Dave is no stranger to self-derision, so i'm sure he can take a little banter on his 2d side perspective POV argument.