Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Great, more straw men.

I'll say it again, if you don't know what my position is, you can't actually argue against it.

I'm EXPLAINING HIS POSITION TO YOU, you mook.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I'm EXPLAINING HIS POSITION TO YOU, you mook.

Smh, I'm not a mind reader you silly person.

Nowhere in your post are you suggesting you're explaining his position. So how am I supposed to know you're not just arguing with me when you've expressed the exact same position?

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I'm not a mind reader you silly person.

Nowhere in your post are you suggesting you're explaining his position so how am I supposed to know you're not just arguing with me when you've expressed the exact same position?

I don't know? Maybe the fact that the whole basis of this part of our conversation is regarding what Solid is saying? How everything that came before that was in reference to how you can't understand his simple concept? You lack the ability to perceive implication. Especially noted by your fastidiousness in regards to getting Solid to directly explain every syllable he writes.

My understanding of his viewpoint:

Taking away the meters could potentially be a good thing. Scorecards should stay hidden because they aren't essential. At this current moment, meters should stay because they contribute too much to the gameplay/meta and if removed, may cause a breaking point.

"It isn't more meters the merrier".


How is that contradictory?


P.S. At no point have I ever directly argued against YOUR specific points, nor have I directly said or even implied the notion. In fact, I have told you the opposite.

[Evil97]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Smh, I'm not a mind reader you silly person.

Nowhere in your post are you suggesting you're explaining his position.

I counted 4. Just saying. Carry on.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I don't know? Maybe the fact that the whole basis of this part of our conversation is regarding what Solid is saying? How everything that came before that was in reference to how you can't understand his simple concept?

I could've assumed that. But again, you've expressed the exact same position a few pages ago. You can't fault me for thinking you were expressing your own views, because were. Even if you were just trying to explain Altair's position to me.

Taking away the meters could potentially be a good thing.

He never said this (at least not to my knowledge).

Scorecards should stay hidden because they aren't essential. At this current moment, meters should stay because they contribute too much to the gameplay/meta and if removed, may cause a breaking point.

That's not his position either. Don't get me wrong, I bet he does think this, but that is not his justification for meters.

How is that contradictory?

It's not. That's actually surprisingly coherent coming from you. But you missed a giant part of Altair's justification for meters which is where his position becomes contradictory. It's just not what Altair said.

He wants meters because he thinks having accurate stamina information (opposed to a rough idea) has a positive effect on fights. He repeatedly said that being able to plan strategy and tactics based on the stamina meter allows for deeper game play, so if you take away the meter and need to actually gauge your opponents it supposedly makes the game less skillful.

I don't see how you can logically have that position and not want scorecards for the exact reason unless you're special pleading. Do you?

[edit]

P.S. At no point have I ever directly argued against YOUR specific points, nor have I directly said or even implied the notion. In fact, I have told you the opposite.

You haven't? Maybe I've confused you with someone else then. In that case you're right.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I could've assumed that. But again, you've expressed the exact same position a few pages ago. You can't fault me for thinking you were expressing your own views, because were. Even if you were just trying to explain Altair's position to me.




He never said this (at least not to my knowledge).

I think he did somewhere earlier in the topic, but it could have been aholbert.

That's not his position either. Don't get me wrong, I bet he does think this, but that is not his justification for meters.

See, this is what I mean about not being able to read through the lines. No, Solid has never directly said that in the words I used. But, it's evident the implication is that it would negatively impact the gameplay tremendously.

To use his words pretty directly: removing scorecards doesn't alter your decision making on a second-by-second basis. Removing meters does. You're removing information both times, but one has a markedly different effect and he doesn't like that. That is not a contradictory position.

It's not. That's actually surprisingly coherent coming from you. But you missed a giant part of Altair's justification for meters which is where his position becomes contradictory. It's just not what Altair said.

He wants meters because he thinks having accurate stamina information (opposed to a rough idea) has a positive effect on fights. He repeatedly said that being able to plan strategy and tactics based on the stamina meter allows for deeper game play, so if you take away the meter and need to actually gauge your opponents it supposedly makes the game less skillful.

I don't see how you can logically have that position and not want scorecards for the exact reason unless you're special pleading. Do you?

As I outlined above, yes. At face value it does look like a contradiction but, in his opinion removing the meters affects the gameplay too much. By seeing someone's stamina you can dictate when to throw your strikes and more in that exact moment. Removing scorecards is much more general (do I need to be aggressive or sit back) and not as needed because you generally have a good idea of who is winning.

Also, this arguably adds a greater layer of skill needed (knowing when to act and when not to) than estimating what these meters are currently at.

[edit]



You haven't? Maybe I've confused you with someone else then. In that case you're right.

This brings me back to a point I had in the beginning which you scoffed at. If you were really so certain that he is special pleading and nothing can convince you otherwise, you have no reason to continue questioning. You don't care about the conversation because you "know" you've won. You're trying to beat him into admitting you're right.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I understand what he's saying, President Trump understands what he's saying, my grandma's dead dog understands what he's saying.

You're being pedantic and purposefully obtuse. How many ways does he have to explain it?

Scorecards don't effect the gameplay that much that removing them affects it. You generally know when you're winning or losing.

Meters are absolutely essential to the current state of gameplay. There is a good chance it would completely break the game if they were removed. The game was not built around that feature.

That's pretty much it, actually. Thank you for letting me know my expression capabilities aren't so terrible.

I would not (edit) go as far as worrying removing the meters would break the game, but I think it would be a bad thing.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

See, this is what I mean about not being able to read through the lines. No, Solid has never directly said that in the words I used. But, it's evident the implication is that it would negatively impact the gameplay tremendously.

To use his words pretty directly: removing scorecards doesn't alter your decision making on a second-by-second basis. Removing meters does. You're removing information both times, but one has a markedly different effect and he doesn't like that. That is not a contradictory position.

Altair stated that the negative effect he thinks removing the meters would have on game play is a lowering of skill level. That's an entirely different position from saying that it would "break the game" which I actually don't think he believes.

As I outlined above, yes. At face value it does look like a contradiction but, in his opinion removing the meters affects the gameplay too much. By seeing someone's stamina you can dictate when to throw your strikes and more in that exact moment. Removing scorecards is much more general (do I need to be aggressive or sit back) and not as needed because you generally have a good idea of who is winning.

Your analysis is correct if you assume he thinks removing meters will break the game. I've seen no evidence that he thinks that.

This brings me back to a point I had in the beginning which you scoffed at. If you were really so certain that he is special pleading and nothing can convince you otherwise, you have no reason to continue questioning. You don't care about the conversation because you "know" you've won. You're trying to beat him into admitting you're right.

If nothing could convince me I'd have stopped talking a while back. I'm actually not entirely convinced he's special pleading and I hope he's not. That's why I'm still asking questions.

That's pretty much it, actually. Thank you for letting me know my expression capabilities aren't so terrible.

Me, over 10 pages ago:

"But let me clear something up. I don't know about everyone else, but anything I suggest on this forum doesn't necessarily have to be addressed pre-release or even before UFC4 becomes a thing.

I just want devs to be aware that I (and plenty others) don't like the idea of meters. If the meters can't be removed without fundamentally destroying the gameplay, by all means, keep them in.

If it's possible to responsibly remove them with a giant patch later down the road, that'd be great. But even if that's not possible, all I'm asking is that when they're developing the next game, try to come up with a system that doesn't rely on meters at all so that removing them makes it a more immersive and authentic MMA experience."

Even with those caveats you still argued in favor of meters.

So are you now all of a sudden saying you'd be in favor of removing meters if we had better cues of a fighters condition?

I would not go as far as worrying removing the meters would break the game

There you go RetractedMonkey.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

"As I outlined above, yes. At face value it does look like a contradiction but, in his opinion removing the meters affects the gameplay too much. By seeing someone's stamina you can dictate when to throw your strikes and more in that exact moment. Removing scorecards is much more general (do I need to be aggressive or sit back) and not as needed because you generally have a good idea of who is winning."


"Breaking the game" is hyperbole. It simply means that gameplay would suffer negatively (you don't need him to outright say that, because it is directly implied and defined by his logic). Even if I did mean the extreme, I did not use that phrase in this quote. You just discarded this line of reasoning even though it answers your question. So we take that away and we have a pretty good representation of his argument. Thus, we can finally conclude it is not contradictory.

Scorecards affect gameplay very generally, meters affect it in a larger way second-by-second, here-and-now. If you can't pack your bag and go home after this, there is nothing left as the argument CANNOT get more succinct than that.

We've established this is without a doubt, Solid's argument without frills or bells. Stripped down to the core, using only things directly extrapolated from what he said. It does not rely on my "breaking the game" comments.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

"Breaking the game" is hyperbole.

Since some people actually argue that it would break the game (read: make it unplayable), I took you at face value and even stated that I don't think that's actually Altair's position.

It simply means that gameplay would suffer negatively (you don't need him to outright say that, because it is directly implied and defined by his logic).

I know he thinks that. I even told you what he thought these negative effects would be; A lowering of skill level by making wrong tactical decisions due to lack of information.

You just discarded this line of reasoning even though it answers your question. So we take that away and we have a pretty good representation of his argument. Thus, we can finally conclude it is not contradictory.

I think you've lost the plot here.

I know he thinks that the game play will suffer without meters. The contradiction arises in what he stated the negative effect would be.

Scorecards affect gameplay very generally, meters affect it in a larger way second-by-second, here-and-now.

I understand that's his position. But that doesn't answer my question and doesn't make it less contradictory.

It's fine though, I'm tired.

[edit]

I appreciate the fact that you changed your tone though. Good talk. Frustrating, but good.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Anyone arguing that no meters would break the game has never tried it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Zg2-essQ4

Here’s an example. And this is me going against dudes who most likely have it on.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I understand that's his position. But that doesn't answer my question and doesn't make it less contradictory.

You still think there is a contradiction? lol... Well... I'll let it be, because I'm tired, too.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

You still think there is a contradiction?

There is. But if you literally can't see it even though I spelled it out multiple times. So I give up.

[aholbert32]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

75% of this small community thinks the meters should be removed at the minimum for unranked. I cant tell if that is a good thing or bad thing.

On the good side, 3/4 of the people here agree on something so that has to mean something.

On the other hand, this community is the hardest of the hardcore. So I think its safe to assume that if this pool was widened and more casual fans were aware of it, the numbers would drop given that meters are a more casual/fighting game feature.

My question is how low would the number have to drop to make you reconsider wanting to remove them? Lets say it drops to 55%. That means almost half the community is against removing them. If I was a dev that would make me hesitant to remove them. Especially because I dont think we have enough animation tells from a stamina and health perspective.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who hasnt played with a HUD in almost 10 years (back with the Undisputed series) but I'm an offline player and play without a HUD primarily to increase the difficulty.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

75% of this small community thinks the meters should be removed at the minimum for unranked. I cant tell if that is a good thing or bad thing.

On the good side, 3/4 of the people here agree on something so that has to mean something.

On the other hand, this community is the hardest of the hardcore. So I think its safe to assume that if this pool was widened and more casual fans were aware of it, the numbers would drop given that meters are a more casual/fighting game feature.

My question is how low would the number have to drop to make you reconsider wanting to remove them? Lets say it drops to 55%. That means almost half the community is against removing them. If I was a dev that would make me hesitant to remove them. Especially because I dont think we have enough animation tells from a stamina and health perspective.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who hasnt played with a HUD in almost 10 years (back with the Undisputed series) but I'm an offline player and play without a HUD primarily to increase the difficulty.

What about removing them at a certain division. Like div 6 and up the training wheels come off.

They should be only hardcore fans(and Solid Altar lol)