Superman Returns

[aukevin]

Re: Superman Returns

Lois doesn't have to remember anything about Clark being Superman...she realizes he's Superman's kid later on in the movie I thought...or did she know all along?

I thought she knew all along. If she remembers having sex with a powerless Superman, I would think she would remember it all.

I guess you could be right and that she didn't realize it until he threw the piano, but I never got that impression. If it did go down like that, I would think Lois would be pretty upset with Superman for knocking her up and then mind-wiping her.

[CaptainZombie]

Re: Superman Returns

The source of the complaints isn't about the characters, so that point is moot.

The source of the complaints is about the way the plot is structured, and how to make Superman relevant. They didn't approach it the right way, and as a result the film feels hollow when it shouldn't.

This movie leaves us with way too many unanswered questions.

[Kashanova]

Re: Superman Returns

one question

batman begins or superman returns?

[aukevin]

Re: Superman Returns

one question

batman begins or superman returns?

Superman Returns

[neovsmatrix]

Re: Superman Returns

one question

batman begins or superman returns?

Easily Batman Begins.

More depth, great action, more resonant, etc.

[neovsmatrix]

Re: Superman Returns

Really? I thought that Lois was whispering to Superman that she still loves him and didn't want the kid to hear because that would be devastating to the emotional state of a child. From there, Superman must assume something about the child being his son, and if you've ever seen any daytime talk shows, men can make many mistakes about that assumption.

When Lois bends over and whispers something to Superman, we don't hear what she has to say, but considering he goes to the kid once he wakes up to give his speech, it's a fairly safe bet that she whispered that the kid was his son. There is no logical progression from Lois loving Superman and her kid being Superman's given what we know to have happened. No way that Superman could or should make that connection or assumption, unless she explicitly said so. The two ideas are mutually exclusive. She must have explicitly said the kid was Superman's in order for him to act on that idea. Given all the other events that happen in the movie, the only conclusion I can come to is you're not interpreting the movie correctly. I can understand if such a mishap might occur in real life, but this is a movie, and a movie has to have an internal consistency in order to be even halfway coherent. And I never accused Superman Returns of being incoherent.

Kryptonite transfers superpowers to vulnerable kids who suffer from asthma. After all, Luthor had just shoved some right in his face minutes before. I just wrote another explanation. Stupid? Yes, but feasible. That kind of explanation happens all the time in movies and comic books alike. You have to remember, this is the same director of the movie where all signs point to Gabriel Byrne being one of the most ruthless criminals in the world with a long drawn out conclusion by the movie's detective, but then, WHOOSH, it turned out to be the gimp telling the story with a complex lie all along. No conclusion is certain, unless the audience is told, not "implied".

Where was this even IMPLIED!???? Not everything in a movie has to be stated out right for it to be true. However, there has to be SOME implication in the movie itself for the audience to even make that assumption. Your completely baseless assumptions are a disservice to the director, as he's a far more gifted filmmaker than you give him credit for. I can understand a hack doing that, but Bryan Singer's no hack, and Superman Returns isn't any B movie of the week where this kind of thing would be excusable. Superman Returns, IMHO was a failure, and there were some poor creative choices, but that doesn't mean it's an abysmal film, nor does it mean Bryan Singer is a hack. By the way, there's no reason why kryptonite would transfer powers to an asthmatic kid. And if kryptonite did transfer powers to ordinary people, having the opposite reaction when interacting with Superman, then Lex would be powerful as well. Given that's not what happens in the movie, one has to rule that idea out.

This movie, much like the Matrix movies, was certainly not written by any grand philosopher and probably does not warrant this much in-depth analysis. I'd bet that those writers would look at religious and social commentaries about their works such as yours and say to themselves, "Wow, somebody actually swallowed my written-over-a-lunch-break BS to be interpreted as this much an important piece to society?", much like the look that appears on Stan Lee's face when some naive kid asks him about Spiderman like its the second coming of Christ. Or maybe I'm just being cynical.

Oh boy. First, the Matrix movies DID warrant in-depth analysis. If you didn't think it did, well, that's a purely subjective opinion without any basis in fact. I can easily prove that the Matrix trilogy had much more going on than met the eye based on quotes from the actors themselves to the directors as well. The movies weren't written by grand philosophers, that's true, but the philosophical ideas within them are BORROWED from grand philosophers and integrated into a coherent narrative, so yes, it does warrant analysis. Anyone who dismisses it so brazenly either doesn't get the point or doesn't WANT to get the point of the movies.

As for the Usual Suspects, give Bryan Singer some credit. He didn't exactly pull the rug under you by having a completely baseless twist in the Usual Suspects. He was hinting at the truth the entire length of the movie. Heck, when I first saw the movie, I saw those hints and wrote down who I thought Keyser Soze really was before the movie ended on a piece of paper so I could show my bro I predicted correctly. What Singer did at the end was make it SEEM like Verbal Kint was being manipulated because that was the detective's perspective he was basing it off of instead of Kint manipulating the detective. Then he showed what was the real truth of the story by showing Kint walking off and the detective making the realization he was fooled and mislead all along. He was leading up to Kint being Soze all along, what was impressive about the movie was how he managed to completely turn over audience's expectations with that one grand "pseudo-twist" with Byrne as Soze before revealing it was just a trick. He never violated the internal logic of the movie, and there's no reason to suspect he would do so for Superman Returns.

[SPTO]

Re: Superman Returns

one question

batman begins or superman returns?

Hmm tough, I'm more partial to Batman BUT I thought this movie did a great job of referencing the past while telling a somewhat complex story. I also think the acting was slightly better in Superman Returns. I'd have to say they're pretty even but SR gets the slight nod due to the iconic scenes and the honouring of the past as well.

[SonicMage]

Re: Superman Returns

As for the Usual Suspects, give Bryan Singer some credit. He didn't exactly pull the rug under you by having a completely baseless twist in the Usual Suspects. He was hinting at the truth the entire length of the movie. Heck, when I first saw the movie, I saw those hints and wrote down who I thought Keyser Soze really was before the movie ended on a piece of paper so I could show my bro I predicted correctly. What Singer did at the end was make it SEEM like Verbal Kint was being manipulated because that was the detective's perspective he was basing it off of instead of Kint manipulating the detective. Then he showed what was the real truth of the story by showing Kint walking off and the detective making the realization he was fooled and mislead all along. He was leading up to Kint being Soze all along, what was impressive about the movie was how he managed to completely turn over audience's expectations with that one grand "pseudo-twist" with Byrne as Soze before revealing it was just a trick. He never violated the internal logic of the movie, and there's no reason to suspect he would do so for Superman Returns.

I give Bryan Singer a lot of credit, Usual Suspects is one of my favorites, mostly because of the ending. I wasn't knocking that movie, I was just entertaining the possibility that we all could also be taken for a ride with this whole "Superman child" subplot. Admit it, though, without the twist at the end, and Kint actually being Sose, Suspects would be considered a rather sub-par movie. :wink:

I thought the first two Xmen movies were entertaining enough to give this Superman some real hope, and I made sure my friends knew that, too. I was there at Comic-Con last year when Singer was talking about the movie, and from the first clips I saw, it gave many of us some faith. Huge letdown.

I felt the characters as well as the plot itself were flawed. Superman has vulnerabilities, yes, but I just thought he had TOO much guilt and TOO much jealousy. This is a man who can truly do no wrong, so why would he be so weepy throughout most of the film? I thought this led to the inconsistent pacing and lack of excitement that the film had. A want to leave the theater is not a usual feeling I get.

As for the Matrix movies...right message, wrong courier.

[neovsmatrix]

Re: Superman Returns

Hmm tough, I'm more partial to Batman BUT I thought this movie did a great job of referencing the past while telling a somewhat complex story. I also think the acting was slightly better in Superman Returns. I'd have to say they're pretty even but SR gets the slight nod due to the iconic scenes and the honouring of the past as well.

What was complicated about Superman Returns?

Batman Begins had a much better story, one that the audiences could relate to (this is regardless of the character differences as I've already stated before).

Honestly, I didn't think there was anything thought provoking in Superman Returns, while on the other hand Batman Begins was centered around an ideological conflict of how to best revive a society: either burn it to the ground and start fresh or to keep whatever is functional intact in the hopes that someday it'll improve.

And I thought the acting in Batman Begins was just as good, if not better, than the acting in Superman Returns.

[SPTO]

Re: Superman Returns

What was complicated about Superman Returns?

Sorry I should've been more specific when I say that it was a complex story I meant in terms of presenting the story and leaving so many questions for the audience to ponder and wonder about until the sequel. BB's only real hook to me is the Harvey Dent/Joker possibility which is pretty big but the script didn't really leave TOO much to think and wonder about til the next film.

And I thought the acting in Batman Begins was just as good, if not better, than the acting in Superman Returns.

Probably so, but Katie Holmes' putrid acting dragged the overall acting down a notch or two to me.

[aukevin]

Re: Superman Returns

What was complicated about Superman Returns?

Batman Begins had a much better story, one that the audiences could relate to (this is regardless of the character differences as I've already stated before).

Honestly, I didn't think there was anything thought provoking in Superman Returns, while on the other hand Batman Begins was centered around an ideological conflict of how to best revive a society: either burn it to the ground and start fresh or to keep whatever is functional intact in the hopes that someday it'll improve.

And I thought the acting in Batman Begins was just as good, if not better, than the acting in Superman Returns.

Superman Returns I liked better mainly because I like the Superman character more than Batman. I do really like Batman though, he's probably my 4th favorite comic hero.

But one thing that brought Batman Begins down for me was having to sit through the origins of the character. I realize lots of people like that, but I've seen it and read about it so many times, I didn't really want to see it again. But I understand you have to do that when you start a new franchise. But I also didn't like all the aspects that writer of the movie put in there. I thought the part of Ras training the pre-Batman Bruce Wayne was a cool twist and that is something I would like to see worked into the comics, but I didn't like the part where the young Bruce felt guilty about his parent's death. I always liked the happy Wayne family leaving the Zorro movie (a part of the inspiration of Batman) and then attacked in the alley rather than Bruce being scared of bats in an opera and making his family leave the show. That's a small problem I had with the movie, but I guess it was just the slow retelling and pacing of the movie at the beginning that brought it down for me. I have real high hopes for the sequel when they can get right into it. Like I said though, if you are restarting a franchise, you have to have the origin story in there, I was just surprised that I didn't enjoy it as much in Batman Begins as I did in movies like Spider-man or Punisher.

I liked everything about Batman Begins that dealt with him training from Ras Al Ghul and most of everything after he became Batman, just the other parts weren't my favorites. I loved every minute of Superman Returns though.

[mgoblue]

Re: Superman Returns

If it did go down like that, I would think Lois would be pretty upset with Superman for knocking her up and then mind-wiping her.

that's what we call "Saturday Night" around my apartment

[neovsmatrix]

Re: Superman Returns

I give Bryan Singer a lot of credit, Usual Suspects is one of my favorites, mostly because of the ending. I wasn't knocking that movie, I was just entertaining the possibility that we all could also be taken for a ride with this whole "Superman child" subplot. Admit it, though, without the twist at the end, and Kint actually being Sose, Suspects would be considered a rather sub-par movie. :wink:

I thought the first two Xmen movies were entertaining enough to give this Superman some real hope, and I made sure my friends knew that, too. I was there at Comic-Con last year when Singer was talking about the movie, and from the first clips I saw, it gave many of us some faith. Huge letdown.

I felt the characters as well as the plot itself were flawed. Superman has vulnerabilities, yes, but I just thought he had TOO much guilt and TOO much jealousy. This is a man who can truly do no wrong, so why would he be so weepy throughout most of the film? I thought this led to the inconsistent pacing and lack of excitement that the film had. A want to leave the theater is not a usual feeling I get.

As for the Matrix movies...right message, wrong courier.

Well, as for the Usual Suspects, it's one of my favorite movies as well, partly because of its aesthetic appeal. It weaves an intricate tale about a foreboding character, and it does it so effectively. The movie was like the ideal film noir movie for me. So the twist alone isn't what made the movie so great. It was heavy on the atmosphere, the music and direction were excellent, and the characters were really interesting. If a movie has only a great ending to hold on to, it's not a great movie, it's just a movie with a great ending. For me, Usual Suspects is a great movie that happens to have a great "twist". Though that twist didn't actually fool me, it was just a cool way to end the film.


As for the Matrix trilogy you say right message, wrong courier. What do you mean by that? Do you know what the message of the Matrix trilogy is? What are you expressing dissatisfaction with? How the story was told? The trilogy isn't perfect by any means, I'm just really impressed with how layered the story is, and how consistent it turned out to be. The actual story itself is admittedly a bit lacking in terms of drama.

And as far as Superman Returns is concerned, how did he have too much jealousy? How did he have too much guilt? IMHO, he didn't have enough REASON for guilt, because the film does a poor job of establishing the world is worse off without him than with him. As for jealousy, he displayed a bit of jealousy, but I think that's natural, because he still has feelings like any human.

Really, I thought there should have been more guilt or at least a better representation of why he would have guilt. What we see isn't really guilt as much as regret with Superman. He regrets leaving Lois, and the world. But we don't see any cause for actual guilt because the film does a poor job of establishing how the world is with and without Superman. I wouldn't say the emotions expressed by Superman were actual guilt, I think they were more in line with regret.

[aukevin]

Re: Superman Returns

Well, as for the Usual Suspects, it's one of my favorite movies as well, partly because of its aesthetic appeal. It weaves an intricate tale about a foreboding character, and it does it so effectively. The movie was like the ideal film noir movie for me. So the twist alone isn't what made the movie so great. It was heavy on the atmosphere, the music and direction were excellent, and the characters were really interesting. If a movie has only a great ending to hold on to, it's not a great movie, it's just a movie with a great ending. For me, Usual Suspects is a great movie that happens to have a great "twist". Though that twist didn't actually fool me, it was just a cool way to end the film.


As for the Matrix trilogy you say right message, wrong courier. What do you mean by that? Do you know what the message of the Matrix trilogy is? What are you expressing dissatisfaction with? How the story was told? The trilogy isn't perfect by any means, I'm just really impressed with how layered the story is, and how consistent it turned out to be. The actual story itself is admittedly a bit lacking in terms of drama.

And as far as Superman Returns is concerned, how did he have too much jealousy? How did he have too much guilt? IMHO, he didn't have enough REASON for guilt, because the film does a poor job of establishing the world is worse off without him than with him. As for jealousy, he displayed a bit of jealousy, but I think that's natural, because he still has feelings like any human.

Really, I thought there should have been more guilt or at least a better representation of why he would have guilt. What we see isn't really guilt as much as regret with Superman. He regrets leaving Lois, and the world. But we don't see any cause for actual guilt because the film does a poor job of establishing how the world is with and without Superman. I wouldn't say the emotions expressed by Superman were actual guilt, I think they were more in line with regret.

I never thought of Superman feeling guilt in the movie for leaving, but like neo says regret. I don't even think his regret is much for leaving Earth as it is for leaving Lois without explanation. Superman realized he was a coward for leaving without telling her. I didn't see any guilt there. I think Superman obviously has some regret that he couldn't help save people for the 5 years he was gone, but finding out truths about Krypton was something he had to do.

[neovsmatrix]

Re: Superman Returns

Sorry I should've been more specific when I say that it was a complex story I meant in terms of presenting the story and leaving so many questions for the audience to ponder and wonder about until the sequel. BB's only real hook to me is the Harvey Dent/Joker possibility which is pretty big but the script didn't really leave TOO much to think and wonder about til the next film.





Probably so, but Katie Holmes' putrid acting dragged the overall acting down a notch or two to me.

Hmm, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I thought Superman Returns didn't really offer any questions to ponder over other than superficial plot machinations due to poor creative decisions, while on the other hand the battle between the ideals of Batman and Rhas-Al-Ghul was something I found compelling to watch and somewhat thought provoking.

I personally like Superman better than Batman (just slightly in terms of character), but as far as films go, Batman Begins IMHO is much better.