Spider-Man: Homecoming

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  • Money99
    Hall Of Fame
    • Sep 2002
    • 12695

    #196
    Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

    Originally posted by RockinDaMike
    Zendaya is half white, so being part black makes it not acceptable to play Mary Jane? Dye her hair red forPeter's sake. Super silly to even be remotely disturbed by it.

    We are talking about Queens NY also which is diverse as you can get and i'm glad this movie is looking to represent that. I'm glad this generation of kids can get a John Hughes type movie that is diverse.

    Seriously, we've had Mary Jane in 5 movies and she's been white and once the race is changed by 50% the internet goes ape ****. We are gonna see so many versions of Mary Jane even after we are all dead so chill out. I even hope Ice Cube is Jonah Jamieson then everyone is gonna flip out.
    Ice Cube as JJJ???? YES PLEASE!!

    Comment

    • Bellsprout
      Hard Times.
      • Oct 2009
      • 25652

      #197
      Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

      Ice Cube as Jonah Jameson is pretty much the best idea I've ever heard in my life.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Member: OS Uni Snob Association | Twitter: @MyNameIsJesseG | #WT4M | #WatchTheWorldBurn
      Originally posted by l3ulvl
      A lot of you guys seem pretty cool, but you have wieners.

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      • daflyboys
        Banned
        • May 2003
        • 18238

        #198
        Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

        Hey sorry if anyone was offended here. That was not my intention. Just to be clear, I am in no way racist or a separatist. But I don't believe in multi-culturalism or a hyphenated society. In this country I see us as all Americans. I do love to interrelate with people of cultures and sub-cultures different from my own. Of course I understand there are other ways and manners of seeing things and looking at things.

        I'm probably somewhat passionate about what I said because I grew up with these characters and don't like to see them change. So I do no deviate from the points I made. But I can understand the points others made here as well as long as they were done so intelligently and thoughtfully.

        Comment

        • wwharton
          *ll St*r
          • Aug 2002
          • 26949

          #199
          Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

          Originally posted by Fresh Tendrils
          To say it matters or doesn't matter 100% one way or the other is off the mark to me.

          There are characters where their race is integral to the mythos and their identity. Some of them have already been brought up. Changing Storm's or Black Panther's race would basically create entirely different characters from what has been established in their histories.

          Yet, on the other side, there are a myriad of characters where neither their race, hair or eye color, or really any part of their physical appearance plays an integral role in the character's identity. Mary Jane, much like Johnny Storm, is an example of that. Going outside of comics for a second you could also include James Bond and the push for Idris Elba to get the part. If the best we can do is Kirsten Dunst then I don't see why anybody would have a problem casting a wider net to find a better actress.

          If your whole basis of bitching is because the movie version differs in hair or skin color than the comic book version then maybe you're not as nuanced as you think. Assigning blame to this Hollywood PC garbage argument makes it clearer.
          This post pretty much sums it up IMO. There are certain things important to every character... in some cases it is ethnicity. Literally everything else can, and has been modified to fit the vision of whoever is making the movie. Mary Jane is the definition of everything else, besides the red hair... and many other love interests don't even have hair color making them recognizable.

          The funny thing is I think many "traditionalists" should be mad that they're making these movies at all. I fell in love with these characters in comic books years ago, when their stories and powers were fresh and new. I was excited when they started coming to the big screen and I enjoy these movies as much as anyone, but it also seems pretty lazy to me now. Make new characters with new stories and new powers. The problem is we see the name (SPIDERMAN) and the costume and the powers, and that alone sells tickets. The stories are all different, even the origins in some cases. It seems to me people should either be annoyed at the bastardization of the original stories all together, or (like me) just enjoy these new adaptations of them for what they are... and that certainly means not getting up in arms about a side character not matching what some artist drew 60 years ago.

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          • redsrule
            All Star
            • Apr 2010
            • 9396

            #200
            Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

            Originally posted by Bellsprout
            Ice Cube as Jonah Jameson is pretty much the best idea I've ever heard in my life.


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
            JK Simmons should be the only one allowed to play Jonah Jameson. Pretty much the best casting ever.
            Cincinnati Reds University of Kentucky Cincinnati Bengals
            @GoReds1994

            Comment

            • bkrich83
              Has Been
              • Jul 2002
              • 71579

              #201
              Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

              Originally posted by Fresh Tendrils
              To say it matters or doesn't matter 100% one way or the other is off the mark to me.

              There are characters where their race is integral to the mythos and their identity. Some of them have already been brought up. Changing Storm's or Black Panther's race would basically create entirely different characters from what has been established in their histories.

              Yet, on the other side, there are a myriad of characters where neither their race, hair or eye color, or really any part of their physical appearance plays an integral role in the character's identity. Mary Jane, much like Johnny Storm, is an example of that. Going outside of comics for a second you could also include James Bond and the push for Idris Elba to get the part. If the best we can do is Kirsten Dunst then I don't see why anybody would have a problem casting a wider net to find a better actress.

              If your whole basis of bitching is because the movie version differs in hair or skin color than the comic book version then maybe you're not as nuanced as you think. Assigning blame to this Hollywood PC garbage argument makes it clearer.
              Best post of the thread.
              Tracking my NCAA Coach Career

              Comment

              • areobee401
                Hall Of Fame
                • Apr 2006
                • 16771

                #202
                Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                Originally posted by Fresh Tendrils
                To say it matters or doesn't matter 100% one way or the other is off the mark to me.

                There are characters where their race is integral to the mythos and their identity. Some of them have already been brought up. Changing Storm's or Black Panther's race would basically create entirely different characters from what has been established in their histories.

                Yet, on the other side, there are a myriad of characters where neither their race, hair or eye color, or really any part of their physical appearance plays an integral role in the character's identity. Mary Jane, much like Johnny Storm, is an example of that. Going outside of comics for a second you could also include James Bond and the push for Idris Elba to get the part. If the best we can do is Kirsten Dunst then I don't see why anybody would have a problem casting a wider net to find a better actress.

                If your whole basis of bitching is because the movie version differs in hair or skin color than the comic book version then maybe you're not as nuanced as you think. Assigning blame to this Hollywood PC garbage argument makes it clearer.
                Great post, FT.
                http://twitter.com/smittyroberts

                Comment

                • King_B_Mack
                  All Star
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 24450

                  #203
                  Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                  Originally posted by LowerWolf
                  I like the raisin analogy.



                  But here's my question: You have an endless supply of raisins from which to supply the two bowls. If the bowls are not balanced, rather than take from one bowl to fill the other, why not adjust the supply to ensure both bowls are properly balanced?


                  The problem with this as the analogy points out is that lets say we have this endless amount like you suggest. In order to get that balance you're asking about, you'd have to completely cutoff the left bowl now just for the right to catch up. Does that really make sense to do? Does that even seem like something capable of being done? I'd argue it's not feasible to just stop that other side as opposed to just taking some from the fuller bowl.

                  As to just making new characters with new powers it's really not that easy. When you already have characters with 60 years of history/stories and counting it's not that easy to just MAKE a new iconic hero that'll be around for 60 years in their own right. Especially not in this society where people hop on the internet comments section of things and rip things apart when you're trying to do something different.

                  Who do you take out of these movies if you just make somebody new? Okay you want to cast Zendaya in this movie as Peter's love interest but god forbid you make her a white character so make a new character for the movie. Okay new character made and now this character immediately starts off hated and with a bias against her because instead of Gwen or Mary Jane or Felicia Hardy or some other known chick from the Spider-Man comics, we've got some new character made just to be his love interest when he's got all these to choose from and we still get the PC narrative because the actress is a POC. It's a lot easier to change a character's color than get a totally new character over as someone you should care about.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                  • mestevo
                    Gooney Goo Goo
                    • Apr 2010
                    • 19556

                    #204
                    Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                    Not a bad idea actually, she could have been Riri Williams.

                    We knew Riri Williams would be the new Iron Man, we just didn't know her superhero name until now. (And thankfully, it's not Iron Woman.)


                    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

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                    • KSOR24
                      Pro
                      • Jul 2011
                      • 949

                      #205
                      Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                      I think it's ironic that people will openly express outrage when a comic book character's costume design is changed for a movie, and that's considered to be acceptable, but the moment you question a character's change in ethnicity you're pretty much labeled a racist. I mean just look at how people reacted to the first picture of Jared Leto's Joker. Almost everyone took objection to the fact that he was given tattoos and a grill and looked very different from his depiction in the comics. Ultimately it didn't matter because he gave a good performance and won people over, but no one was chastised for criticizing his character's appearance. If someone decides they're not going to watch the new Spiderman movie solely because they didn't cast a white girl as MJ, then yeah there's a bigger issue there, but I'm sure most of the people who have a problem with the casting decision will still watch the movie and enjoy Zendaya's performance.

                      This whole thing has less to do with race and more to do with the fact that the character's appearance is being changed at all. I'm not saying this is worth making a big fuss over, but do you guys honestly think the overall reaction would be the same if for instance the color of Spiderman's costume was changed to orange and black? Or what if they had cast a teenager with a really deep voice who sounded like he was 30 instead of Tom Holland? I wonder if everyone would be rushing to defend Marvel's decision and accuse the people who don't like it of being ignorant. At the end of the day all these things are related to the character's physical appearance, but there's clearly a different standard of judgment when race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation are involved. People simply want the characters to look and act true to the source material. That doesn't make them bigoted.
                      GT: assassinK24

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                      • The JareBear
                        Be Good To One Another
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 11560

                        #206
                        Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                        Has anyone seen the other two movies this movie's director has done? Jon Watts....

                        I heard Clown was good. It sounded like a fun little indie horror film. Cop Car looked good in the trailer but I never saw it, I should check it out.
                        "Successful people do not celebrate in the adversity or misfortune of others."

                        OS Blog

                        The Tortured Mind Of A Rockies Fan. In Arenado I Trust.

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                        • wwharton
                          *ll St*r
                          • Aug 2002
                          • 26949

                          #207
                          Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                          Originally posted by KSOR24
                          I think it's ironic that people will openly express outrage when a comic book character's costume design is changed for a movie, and that's considered to be acceptable, but the moment you question a character's change in ethnicity you're pretty much labeled a racist. I mean just look at how people reacted to the first picture of Jared Leto's Joker. Almost everyone took objection to the fact that he was given tattoos and a grill and looked very different from his depiction in the comics. Ultimately it didn't matter because he gave a good performance and won people over, but no one was chastised for criticizing his character's appearance. If someone decides they're not going to watch the new Spiderman movie solely because they didn't cast a white girl as MJ, then yeah there's a bigger issue there, but I'm sure most of the people who have a problem with the casting decision will still watch the movie and enjoy Zendaya's performance.

                          This whole thing has less to do with race and more to do with the fact that the character's appearance is being changed at all. I'm not saying this is worth making a big fuss over, but do you guys honestly think the overall reaction would be the same if for instance the color of Spiderman's costume was changed to orange and black? Or what if they had cast a teenager with a really deep voice who sounded like he was 30 instead of Tom Holland? I wonder if everyone would be rushing to defend Marvel's decision and accuse the people who don't like it of being ignorant. At the end of the day all these things are related to the character's physical appearance, but there's clearly a different standard of judgment when race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation are involved. People simply want the characters to look and act true to the source material. That doesn't make them bigoted.
                          First, NOBODY in this discussion has labeled anyone a racist or a bigot. That's VERY important, if only because it is against the TOS to even discuss on this site (in short, I'm shutting down any conversation of this angle right now before this thread is locked and/or worse, someone gets banned). I know, in some ways, we are discussing peoples' reactions around the internet that does go this far, but HERE we will stop short of discussing that.

                          Second, read Fresh Tendrils post please. I think it answers your question perfectly. There are things that are important... I'd say the costume design of the main character universally falls in that category (but even with that, EVERY last one of these characters have different costumes than their comic book counterparts... and there is ALWAYS discussion on how people feel about them). It's funny that you mention voice, because Bale and Afflect's interpretation of Batman's voice was also discussed to death. However if the main character's best friend was known to wear a blazer and tie in the comics, and in the 2016 movie version they were often in a tee shirt in jeans, you would be chastised for complaining about it... sorry.

                          But these movies aren't made as if in the time these characters were originally created... they've been "modernized" in many ways. I haven't watched a single superhero movie that held true to the comic from start to finish. It baffles me that people are still complaining about anything that differs from the comic in today's day and age, unless it takes away from the story.

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                          • Fresh Tendrils
                            Strike Hard and Fade Away
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 36131

                            #208
                            Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                            I think the word "entitlement" gets thrown around a lot, but I feel in these instances its accurate. With every single piece of news there's a vocal negative reaction. Didn't we have somebody trying to negatively spin Michael Keaton being cast in this film? I don't even care if its warranted like it was with Jared Leto. Its old hat now. Any valid criticism gets thrown out in the same bucket as the mountain of **** takes. So whatever voice and influence we "fans" had is muted due to the volume of our overreactions.

                            And now we're comparing cotton to skin? Sometimes my peers are too much.



                            Comment

                            • KSOR24
                              Pro
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 949

                              #209
                              Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                              Originally posted by wwharton
                              First, NOBODY in this discussion has labeled anyone a racist or a bigot. That's VERY important, if only because it is against the TOS to even discuss on this site (in short, I'm shutting down any conversation of this angle right now before this thread is locked and/or worse, someone gets banned). I know, in some ways, we are discussing peoples' reactions around the internet that does go this far, but HERE we will stop short of discussing that.

                              Second, read Fresh Tendrils post please. I think it answers your question perfectly. There are things that are important... I'd say the costume design of the main character universally falls in that category (but even with that, EVERY last one of these characters have different costumes than their comic book counterparts... and there is ALWAYS discussion on how people feel about them). It's funny that you mention voice, because Bale and Afflect's interpretation of Batman's voice was also discussed to death. However if the main character's best friend was known to wear a blazer and tie in the comics, and in the 2016 movie version they were often in a tee shirt in jeans, you would be chastised for complaining about it... sorry.

                              But these movies aren't made as if in the time these characters were originally created... they've been "modernized" in many ways. I haven't watched a single superhero movie that held true to the comic from start to finish. It baffles me that people are still complaining about anything that differs from the comic in today's day and age, unless it takes away from the story.
                              Don't you think it's subjective and arbitrary to classifiy certain characteristics as "important"? Different things are important to different people, and all the things that have been brought up are pretty much one in the same because they have to do with the character's appearance. Personally, I don't really care because it's just movie designed for entertainment, but I have a problem with this sort of mob mentality I see on social media (moreso on Twitter than here) where people get attacked for having a difference of opinion simply because race is involved (as opposed to say a costume design like I referenced earlier). It all just seems hypocritical to me. When a white actor is cast as a minority character, all you hear are complaints about the movie being "whitewashed" and anger is an acceptable reaction, but when a minority actor is given the part for a white character, any complaint is deemed unjustified. This happened when the cast for Gods of Egypt was announced. IIRC people were boycotting the movie and the director had to publicly apologize. I'm Egyptian and I couldn't care less about who was cast to portray some fictional characters, just like most of you guys don't care about how MJ is portrayed.

                              What I'm getting at is this. Like you said, if someone complains about the main character's best friend's outfit, he might be criticized, but it's his opinion and if he thinks that the best friend should be wearing a blazer and tie then he's entitled to that. If someone thinks that MJ should be a white girl with red hair in the movie because she's a white girl with red hair in the comics, then he's entitled to that opinion too. All I ask is that we treat it all the same. This thread has been filled with jabs at the people on the other side of the argument that I'm not sure we'd see in say a thread about Leto's Joker or Affleck's Batman, and I'm sensing that they feel alienated because of that.
                              GT: assassinK24

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                              • The JareBear
                                Be Good To One Another
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 11560

                                #210
                                Re: Spider-Man: Homecoming

                                Originally posted by KSOR24
                                It all just seems hypocritical to me. When a white actor is cast as a minority character, all you hear are complaints about the movie being "whitewashed" and anger is an acceptable reaction, but when a minority actor is given the part for a white character, any complaint is deemed unjustified. This happened when the cast for Gods of Egypt was announced. IIRC people were boycotting the movie and the director had to publicly apologize. .
                                It's not the same thing. Plain and simple. I don't think anyone could possibly try to rationalize an argument that there aren't enough white stars/heroes/characters.

                                You simply cannot compare the two situations, I would almost call it borderline insensitive to do so.
                                Last edited by The JareBear; 08-22-2016, 05:37 PM.
                                "Successful people do not celebrate in the adversity or misfortune of others."

                                OS Blog

                                The Tortured Mind Of A Rockies Fan. In Arenado I Trust.

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