Terrorism in Orlando

[cjonesfan921]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

I don't believe a full scale war is on any horizon... the world has drastically changed since the mid-1900s. The nukes will make everyone think thrice.

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[slickdtc]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

I just wanted to add, it's amazing and almost unheard of the amount of rational conversation going on in here.

Nobody has gotten political, and has stayed on course. OS is the greatest. I value each and everybody's opinion, just a good discussion going on in here.



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Yeah definitely. Shouts to the mods for keeping this open despite how close this is to things against TOS. There's been differing viewpoints but none of the kid name calling or broad labeling of opposite-viewed users.

This is a pretty massive community, so the civility here is quite an accomplishment. A testament to the respect posters have for the rules and how that respect is reciprocated by admin staff.

Gold stars all around.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

A few things

1) We aren't going to war with Russia. War between power states cannot happen at this point since it would go nuclear. Everyone loses. Besides, they're doing a good job at screwing their nation up already by themselves.

2) We shouldn't go to war with ISIS. As we've learned over the past 20+ years, that just makes a new generation of terrorist groups in power and gets a lot of Americans killed. Do we sit by idly and take it? Absolutely not. But we don't retaliate violently either. What we do is not give them the satisfaction of making us afraid. Yes, I know that it's difficult not to be. Yes, it could be you. It could be your kids or other loved ones. But we can't lash out. That only makes them stronger and us weaker. It gives them more recruits and makes us more divided as we bicker about what we should and shouldn't do about our terror problem, Muslim problem, radical Islam problem, immigrant problem, homophobia problem or whatever you want to call it. We can't even agree on what the issue actually is nor can we agree on how to fix it. So what do we do? We acknowledge that there's a low chance that this happens to anyone as hard as it may be and go about our lives. We consciously choose to not give them the time of day. We're a country defined by its endurance and its ability to adapt over time so why not show that we can endure tragedy and become closer and adapt by not making the same mistake over and over again rather than digging two graves -- one for ISIS and one for ourselves as our nation gets more divided and more lives are lost over a war that we will never win as whether it's ISIS or a group by a new name, this problem will never disappear. No amount of bombs or guns or boots on the ground can full exterminate an ideology. If we pride ourselves on being immune to that as a nation why wouldn't they be immune to it as well? Their history is a history of war and invasion even moreso than ours is. Life is hard there and options are few. They've always been fighting. I don't understand why a few American guns and bombs would kill their spirit and I don't understand why a few hits should kill ours. Yes, they hurt us. Yes, some questions need to be answered but we cannot break and tear ourselves apart on a hunt for revenge.

[SPTO]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

2) We shouldn't go to war with ISIS. As we've learned over the past 20+ years, that just makes a new generation of terrorist groups in power and gets a lot of Americans killed. Do we sit by idly and take it? Absolutely not. But we don't retaliate violently either. What we do is not give them the satisfaction of making us afraid. Yes, I know that it's difficult not to be. Yes, it could be you. It could be your kids or other loved ones. But we can't lash out. That only makes them stronger and us weaker. It gives them more recruits and makes us more divided as we bicker about what we should and shouldn't do about our terror problem, Muslim problem, radical Islam problem, immigrant problem, homophobia problem or whatever you want to call it. We can't even agree on what the issue actually is nor can we agree on how to fix it. So what do we do? We acknowledge that there's a low chance that this happens to anyone as hard as it may be and go about our lives. We consciously choose to not give them the time of day. We're a country defined by its endurance and it's ability to adapt over time so why not show that we can endure tragedy and become closer and adapt by not making the same mistake over and over again rather than digging two graves -- one for ISIS and one for ourselves as our nation gets more divided and more lives are lost over a war that we will never win as whether it's ISIS or a group by a new name, this problem will never disappear. No amount of bombs or guns or boots on the ground can full exterminate an ideology. If we pride ourselves on being immune to that as a nation why wouldn't they be immune to it as well? Their history is a history of war and invasion even moreso than ours is. Life is hard there and options are few. They've always been fighting. I don't understand why a few American guns and bombs would kill their spirit and I don't understand why a few hits should kill ours. Yes, they hurt us. Yes, some questions need to be answered but we cannot break and tear ourselves apart on a hunt for revenge.

This crystallizes the issue so beautifully. I think it's pretty clear that too many people are letting their hearts and emotions overrule rationality to the point that there are rash decisions made. It's easier said than done to say "let's be more rational" but that's exactly what needs to happen. It doesn't help that there are those willing to exploit the situation whether they're on the left or the right. Another issue is this, America is NOT used to being hit back in this way. Yes, there was Vietnam where the Vietcong successfully made the US military look like fools even though they were technically winning on the ground the VCs held out long enough and lashed back effectively enough that the public grew tired and against the war. This is America's first extended period of being attacked on its own soil since the Civil War period and people are just not used to it.

The UK had to deal with homegrown terrorism for YEARS and Israel has had to endure a lot throughout its entire history to the point that they have the best anti-terror defense apparatus in the world. America has to take cues from those nations and apply it in the best way possible for the American populace.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

This crystallizes the issue so beautifully. I think it's pretty clear that too many people are letting their hearts and emotions overrule rationality to the point that there are rash decisions made. It's easier said than done to say "let's be more rational" but that's exactly what needs to happen. It doesn't help that there are those willing to exploit the situation whether they're on the left or the right. Another issue is this, America is NOT used to being hit back in this way. Yes, there was Vietnam where the Vietcong successfully made the US military look like fools even though they were technically winning on the ground the VCs held out long enough and lashed back effectively enough that the public grew tired and against the war. This is America's first extended period of being attacked on its own soil since the Civil War period and people are just not used to it.

The UK had to deal with homegrown terrorism for YEARS and Israel has had to endure a lot throughout its entire history to the point that they have the best anti-terror defense apparatus in the world. America has to take cues from those nations and apply it in the best way possible for the American populace.

Exactly - I think that we should slow down, grieve and think later. For example, the time to make decisions about your financial future isn't right after you just found out that someone close to you died. The same applies here. Like it or not, unless one is of the mentality that these people had it coming for being gay (it deeply saddens me that these people exist, but they do), we all got hit and it's time to suspend the games and posturing at least for a while until we can actually think logically again. I get it, it's clear that this had something to do with ideology whether it's Islam, homophobia, gun control or just him being crazy but it's not time for that. I don't understand why we can't suspend the finger pointing. I've seen people say that it's 100% the fault of religion, guns, etc. I've seen people in the middle who express sympathy out of one side of their mouth but feel the need to add "but I'm not okay with the LGBT thing" from the other side as if that needs to be injected because for some reason giving sympathy to a group of people is a political game. I legitimately don't understand why we can't just stop and act human for a while before lighting fires everywhere.

EDIT: To clarify, yes, I have my own stance on contributing factors to this and what should be done, but it's not time for that. I think we all just need to slow down.

[Ghost Of The Year]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

A few things

1) We aren't going to war with Russia. War between power states cannot happen at this point since it would go nuclear. Everyone loses. Besides, they're doing a good job at screwing their nation up already by themselves.

2) We shouldn't go to war with ISIS. As we've learned over the past 20+ years, that just makes a new generation of terrorist groups in power and gets a lot of Americans killed. Do we sit by idly and take it? Absolutely not. But we don't retaliate violently either. What we do is not give them the satisfaction of making us afraid. Yes, I know that it's difficult not to be. Yes, it could be you. It could be your kids or other loved ones. But we can't lash out. That only makes them stronger and us weaker. It gives them more recruits and makes us more divided as we bicker about what we should and shouldn't do about our terror problem, Muslim problem, radical Islam problem, immigrant problem, homophobia problem or whatever you want to call it. We can't even agree on what the issue actually is nor can we agree on how to fix it. So what do we do? We acknowledge that there's a low chance that this happens to anyone as hard as it may be and go about our lives. We consciously choose to not give them the time of day. We're a country defined by its endurance and its ability to adapt over time so why not show that we can endure tragedy and become closer and adapt by not making the same mistake over and over again rather than digging two graves -- one for ISIS and one for ourselves as our nation gets more divided and more lives are lost over a war that we will never win as whether it's ISIS or a group by a new name, this problem will never disappear. No amount of bombs or guns or boots on the ground can full exterminate an ideology. If we pride ourselves on being immune to that as a nation why wouldn't they be immune to it as well? Their history is a history of war and invasion even moreso than ours is. Life is hard there and options are few. They've always been fighting. I don't understand why a few American guns and bombs would kill their spirit and I don't understand why a few hits should kill ours. Yes, they hurt us. Yes, some questions need to be answered but we cannot break and tear ourselves apart on a hunt for revenge.

For the most part I agree, but ignoring that there is a problem isn't going to make it go away, but it could make us go away. There is a common misconception that terrorist just want to make us afraid & if we are not then they will quit trying. But they don't just want to make us afraid. What they want is to convert, subjugate or kill. And killing is preferred. I don't know what the answer is but it sure as hell ain't death by a thousand cuts. The real problem is we can't stomach what happens to the innocent among the enemy if we fight them the way we should. What this generation needs is it's Harry Truman who is willing to do what it takes to save millions of lives on both sides and also shave years off the ongoing war.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

For the most part I agree, but ignoring that there is a problem isn't going to make it go away, but it could make us go away. There is a common misconception that terrorist just want to make us afraid & if we are not then they will quit trying. But they don't just want to make us afraid. What they want is to convert, subjugate or kill. And killing is preferred. I don't know what the answer is but it sure as hell ain't death by a thousand cuts. The real problem is we can't stomach what happens to the innocent among the enemy if we fight them the way we should. What this generation needs is it's Harry Truman who is willing to do what it takes to save millions of lives on both sides and also shave years off the ongoing war.

I don't think we should ignore that there is a problem and I don't think that they're going to stop. However, there's lots that we can do short of going to war. We can refine our ability to weed these people out before they attack (i.e. it's a problem that someone on a terror watch list has a security guards license and can have an easy time purchasing a semi auto assault rifle). Regardless of where you stand on gun control, I think we can all agree that he shouldn't have had one. And you know what? We're probably going to lose more in attacks like these. Does it hurt to say? Sure but it's part of our life now. What we need is the exact opposite of Harry Truman. Why? If Truman runs around now it gets all of us killed, terrorists and Americans alike. We tried the whole "if it looks like a terrorist, kill it" thing in Vietnam and Iraq and we have entire generations still reeling from those wars both at home and abroad. You think total war can fix it but you can't eradicate the entire Middle East and whatever is left of it afterwards will hate this country a million times more than they do now. Congratulations, you've just made the next generation of emboldened fighters. Meanwhile a war like that would divide this country relentlessly as one group of people keeps pounding the war drums while the other becomes to abhor the atrocities that we'd have to commit to win that kind of a fight. Yes, you're right, they want to kill our bodies but countless wars have shown that killing the spirits of the enemy is one quick way to making killing their bodies a lot easier. In short, there are 3 issues with total war. 1) You train the next generation of terrorists 2) You kill a bunch of civilians and we have another round of soldiers who die or come back extremely screwed up both mentally and physically because of the things that they had to do to make it back home and 3) You fracture the very fabric of this country which makes us more vulnerable.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

To me, it's simple what we have to do here in the homeland. We have to crack down on the terror networks right here in this country.

It is garbage, that these savages can live here and practice their hate speech and further their agenda.

Muslim communities need to be responsible for their own. Hate speech should not in anyway be acceptable, especially when their are threats thrown in.

Australia basically forced out a radical leader, after he said the penalty for gay's is death. That's not free speech. That should never be tolerated, along with pro Isis message boards, forums. You support Isis, then it's jail time, crush this thinking.

Obviously anyone on the terror watch list should not be able to buy any kind of firearm.

Those would be my solutions.

Stronger measures can weed out isis here in the United States, but make no mistake about it, their has to be a message sent abroad too, and we have to cut the head off.

As far as Russia, I'm not saying we are going to war. But at this moment the two countries are on a collision course, and I do fear eventually their will be conflict.

We can't sit here at home and pretend this is going to pass. Their is no reason whatsoever that this country should start having a terror attack every once in a while.

We can't stop everything, but foreign terror should never root here and if it does, their should be a major response.

Sooner or later, a country is going to be forced to deal with this.

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[Ghost Of The Year]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

I don't think we should ignore that there is a problem and I don't think that they're going to stop. However, there's lots that we can do short of going to war. We can refine our ability to weed these people out before they attack (i.e. it's a problem that someone on a terror watch list has a security guards license and can have an easy time purchasing a semi auto assault rifle). Regardless of where you stand on gun control, I think we can all agree that he shouldn't have had one. And you know what? We're probably going to lose more in attacks like these. Does it hurt to say? Sure but it's part of our life now. What we need is the exact opposite of Harry Truman. Why? If Truman runs around now it gets all of us killed, terrorists and Americans alike. We tried the whole "if it looks like a terrorist, kill it" thing in Vietnam and Iraq and we have entire generations still reeling from those wars both at home and abroad. You think total war can fix it but you can't eradicate the entire Middle East and whatever is left of it afterwards will hate this country a million times more than they do now. Congratulations, you've just made the next generation of emboldened fighters. Meanwhile a war like that would divide this country relentlessly as one group of people keeps pounding the war drums while the other becomes to abhor the atrocities that we'd have to commit to win that kind of a fight. Yes, you're right, they want to kill our bodies but countless wars have shown that killing the spirits of the enemy is one quick way to making killing their bodies a lot easier. In short, there are 3 issues with total war. 1) You train the next generation of terrorists 2) You kill a bunch of civilians and we have another round of soldiers who die or come back extremely screwed up both mentally and physically because of the things that they had to do to make it back home and 3) You fracture th e very fabric of this country which makes us more vulnerable.

We had no business in Vietnam or Irag. We do have business that needs desparetly attending to now in the middle east but with out some one able to unite 150 plus countries in the same mission, this "soft punch" here & "soft punch" there just won't get the job done. Until the rest of the world decides that a few places in the ME does indeed need to be made into a parking lot as an example to the rest of them, this we have now is the "New Normal", and we might as well accept it for years & years to come. I really don't see us getting anyone who can unite a coalition. Sadly, every leader we have had the last 25 years are the exact leaders we have deserved.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

And that's the problem, we just keep trying to contain this group, instead of putting the fire out. You don't do that.

Drone strikes are a lazy way to fight a war. It's like having one foot in and one out, you acknowledge the problem but your not committed to it.

A NATO ground force with coordinated airstrikes could severely damage this group in a matter of months.

And no we are not trying to occupy anything like Iraq, the mission is to stabilize the region.







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[RAZRr1275]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

To me, it's simple what we have to do here in the homeland. We have to crack down on the terror networks right here in this country.

It is garbage, that these savages can live here and practice their hate speech and further their agenda.

Muslim communities need to be responsible for their own. Hate speech should not in anyway be acceptable, especially when their are threats thrown in.

Australia basically forced out a radical leader, after he said the penalty for gay's is death. That's not free speech. That should never be tolerated, along with pro Isis message boards, forums. You support Isis, then it's jail time, crush this thinking.

Obviously anyone on the terror watch list should not be able to buy any kind of firearm.

Those would be my solutions.

Stronger measures can weed out isis here in the United States, but make no mistake about it, their has to be a message sent abroad too, and we have to cut the head off.

As far as Russia, I'm not saying we are going to war. But at this moment the two countries are on a collision course, and I do fear eventually their will be conflict.

We can't sit here at home and pretend this is going to pass. Their is no reason whatsoever that this country should start having a terror attack every once in a while.

We can't stop everything, but foreign terror should never root here and if it does, their should be a major response.

Sooner or later, a country is going to be forced to deal with this.

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And that attitude is exactly the problem. They aren't savages. Like it or not, they're human beings who think what they're doing is right. Do you really think we're any better if we decide to level the Middle East because we can't take losing 50 of our own when they lose hundreds every day due to crap from both us and their own people? We aren't. And I don't see why this is a big Muslim thing. The people attacking us aren't people screaming jihad in a mosque. They're people with real problems - identity issues, psychological issues, environmental issues. I don't know why I keep saying it but throw them in jail or kill them are not solutions -- that makes more of them because you give them a reason to hate you. Jail doesn't work for anyone. It should be quite clear based on the fact that most people who wind up incarcerated wind up right back in a jail cell at some point shortly after in their lives. No one learns anything that way.

We had no business in Vietnam or Irag. We do have business that needs desparetly attending to now in the middle east but with out some one able to unite 150 plus countries in the same mission, this "soft punch" here & "soft punch" there just won't get the job done. Until the rest of the world decides that a few places in the ME does indeed need to be made into a parking lot as an example to the rest of them, this we have now is the "New Normal", and we might as well accept it for years & years to come. I really don't see us getting anyone who can unite a coalition. Sadly, every leader we have had the last 25 years are the exact leaders we have deserved.

You really think it's a good idea to level the like 3 countries in the Middle East? Do you realize exactly how many innocent people that would kill? And for what? Because we've lost a small amount of people here? Yes, it hurts. I'm as upset as anyone but advocating for bloodshed with no discrimination makes us no better than they are. 1) You make more terrorists that way and 2) In what world is that remotely morally acceptable? And as for the idea of stability how exactly is dropping bombs everywhere supposed to make a region stable?

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

There is no defending Isis. Never once did I say anything about leveling countries.

50 people? Brussels, Paris, Istanbul, Tunisia, etc.. I could go on all day. They are savages, and a cancer to the entire world.

Radical Islam, not Muslim's, although I thought that would be pretty clear.

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[RAZRr1275]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

There is no defending Isis. Never once did I say anything about leveling countries.

50 people? Brussels, Paris, Istanbul, Tunisia, etc.. I could go on all day. They are savages, and a cancer to the entire world.

Radical Islam, not Muslim's, although I thought that would be pretty clear.

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When did I defend ISIS? I just stated the fact that they are people making choices they perceive as rational. They is no such thing as a savage. Merely people in an environment with leanings that push them to a certain direction.

You seriously think that your go to war with them solution will have any success if we don't just level the entire region? One key feature of ISIS as opposed to Al Qaeda is that they're decentralized. There is no head to cut off. There are several heads spread across the Middle East and in the West. You want to knock that entire structure out, you have to level everything.

And the death toll that they have inflicted will be nothing compared to the amount of innocent lives that would be taken on both sides if we tried (and failed. Again) to eradicate terrorism.

Feel free to keep pounding the war drum but going to war would be quite a bad idea.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

Nothing Isis does is rational. You don't rape women, kill, maim, destroy, etc that is not rational, that is not Islam.

I have never said countries need to be leveled, or terrorism can be eradicated, no that is impossible.

The region needs stabilized, homegrown terror needs to be heavily clamped down on, and their has to be a response.

This is not a knee jerk reaction to Orlando, this is for the number of atrocities this group has caused, and the threat they possess.

We are already at war, but not very committed, and that's the problem.

The thing I don't think you understand is somebody's hand will be forced eventually with this group, they're not going away.

And I'm not content to sit by and allow a major attack to happen again on us soil, not when their are multiple solutions to saving lives.





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[TheMatrix31]

Re: Terrorism in Orlando

You can go to war all you want. It won't change anything. This isn't an enemy with borders.

How are you going to stop the dude down the street who goes down to the local community office building and shoots up a Christmas party like in San Bernardino?

How are you going to stop someone from going and stabbing people at a restaurant with a machete like in Columbus?

How are you going to stop a "student" from stabbing a bunch of people like at UC Merced?

How are you going to stop someone from setting pressure cooker bombs at marathons like in Boston?

How are you going to stop the guy who beheads a coworker like in Oklahoma City?

How are you going to stop the guy who takes an ax to cops on the streets of NYC?

This Orlando **** was met by the FBI multiple times and each time, for whatever reason, he was let off the hook. Hell, even AFTER the fact, his wife has been revealed to be an accomplice and yet she hasn't been charged yet.

How exactly?

It's not in some far away land. It's here. And in Canada. And in Europe. And in Australia. And in South America. And in Asia. And everywhere else you can fathom. And this is precisely the reason why they're not. To do things like this among us. And it's very clear, given the post-attack discourse, that nobody is serious about this.

The ideology has metastasized and it is impossible to stop. It's not just ISIS, either. We're just going to have to deal with it. The time to do something about it has long since passed. I'm just hoping I win the lottery soon so I can move to Whereverthe****, Wyoming and leave everyone behind. Enough of this ****.