2020-2021 English Football Thread

[ImTellinTim]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Then he gets the post assist to Neto, lol

Things have picked up.

[~LiverpoolRed~]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Neto has bagged me 11 fantasy points already. lol

[jb12780]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Klopp went in on Sky and BT and I agree with him:

https://youtu.be/hZaUjjPMEEU

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brahvocado]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Well, i don't agree with you here. Just go back to any Arsenal v Man United game from the early to mid 2000s and see what Keane and Viera et al got away with. I don't mind them going a bit away from that but still. It's an adult sport with a lot on the line filled with passion. There are lines you dont cross and that in my mind that threshold wasn't met by Pepe for a straight red. Yellow for both guys. One for idiocy and another for cheating the integrity of the game. I do not agree one bit that embellishment should be part of any sport to draw attention to an incident. If it was missed, then it was missed. The league can go back later and take care of any incident if they feel it was that egregious. Sure that changes the game at hand in that moment but the once or twice a season that happens is not worth what is going on now. Literally we are taking incidents that that aren't red cards and changing them into cards, penalties, etc by acting.

The problem is the sport has evolved into this idea that players have some sort of "right" to draw attention to minor incidents to show a gravity that just isnt there. The way Alioski reacted, you'd think we are talking concussion, stitches, and a serious injury and its happening more and more. To me that was up there with events like Rivaldo in the World Cup years ago.

Yeah I definitely wasn't saying embellishment should be a part of the game at all, just that it currently is necessary if you want to get even deserved calls because the standard for referees is not high enough. I'll see if I can find it later, but there is an older MNF from when Neville and Cara first joined, and they had Howard Webb on there. Neville asked him if he could think of even one single penalty given in his time as a ref where the attacker DIDN'T go down, and he literally could not produce a single example.

You HAVE to go down if you want to get calls, it's not even arguable, very few refs will call fouls where the attacker stays on their feet, and the ones that do don't do it very often. Of course Alioski is a douche for rolling around as if he's legitimately hurt, I wasn't defending that anyway.

Also, retrospective punishment isn't a great take, you even pointed out why that's too lax of an approach. A player would get away with a red card offense and then get punished after the fact, when zero advantage is gained by the other team.

Sorry, but even back in the 2000s you still got a red card for head butting. They certainly got away with a lot more (not even in a good way lmao), but head butting wasn't one of those things. It has no place in the game no matter how soft, it's just as against the spirit of the game as diving, spitting and pretending you're injured when you aren't.

[Brahvocado]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Klopp went in on Sky and BT and I agree with him:

https://youtu.be/hZaUjjPMEEU

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sky actually censored what Klopp said too, holy crap.

[ImTellinTim]

2020-2021 English Football Thread

He’s not the only one saying that kind of stuff either. He’s just the first one to say the quiet part out loud. Many top managers have pointed out how absurd the schedule is getting for players while everything has already been condensed since things restarted. We are playing 3 international matches in a break during a pandemic? It’s certifiably insane.

The CL scheduling thing also gets ridiculous with the Tuesday/Wednesday switch when you’re playing them 3 straight weeks. There’s no good way to work that. They really should be playing all CL/EL matches on Wednesday for this season.

[Keirik]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Yeah I definitely wasn't saying embellishment should be a part of the game at all, just that it currently is necessary if you want to get even deserved calls because the standard for referees is not high enough. I'll see if I can find it later, but there is an older MNF from when Neville and Cara first joined, and they had Howard Webb on there. Neville asked him if he could think of even one single penalty given in his time as a ref where the attacker DIDN'T go down, and he literally could not produce a single example.

You HAVE to go down if you want to get calls, it's not even arguable, very few refs will call fouls where the attacker stays on their feet, and the ones that do don't do it very often. Of course Alioski is a douche for rolling around as if he's legitimately hurt, I wasn't defending that anyway.

Also, retrospective punishment isn't a great take, you even pointed out why that's too lax of an approach. A player would get away with a red card offense and then get punished after the fact, when zero advantage is gained by the other team.

Sorry, but even back in the 2000s you still got a red card for head butting. They certainly got away with a lot more (not even in a good way lmao), but head butting wasn't one of those things. It has no place in the game no matter how soft, it's just as against the spirit of the game as diving, spitting and pretending you're injured when you aren't.

A few things. I think that’s the biggest part of my problem with this. This idea that “you have to go down to get a call.” I disagree. If something isn’t enough to make a person go down, then it’s not exactly a no brainer call in the first place. Leave that in the hands of the guys on the field. Slowing it down to replays and VAR isn’t helping things. It’s muddying the water more by still making a judgement call but now nit picked to the part of insanity.

Honestly, so what if what Pepe did was missed? Did he attempt to maim someone? No. Was it a scummy thing to do? Okay sure, but it wasn’t enough for a referee or two lines judges to notice. So be it. This idea that you have to go down is so horrible for the integrity of this game in every way. If there is contact in the box these days every player is looking to force a call by going down rather than play the game. It doesn’t help the game one bit. No one wants to see a game of consisting of 3-5 penalties, reviews and stoppages all game, and multiple yellow and or red cards because a player can’t take some physicality at all.

I’m not trying to defend Pepe as much as I’m arguing that if you needed VAR and a guy rolling around as if he were assaulted then we have a problem with how the game is going. This is especially true in my mind if you aren’t going to punish cheating the game by embellishing it. I don’t see what Pepe did as even close to being on the same level of biting someone. I don’t even know if that head butt would even break wind let alone hurt anyone. They both came head to head and Pepe just didn’t stop. It wasn’t a Zidane style level of egregiousness. I’d have had no problem with a yellow for both.

I don’t care what Howard Webb says lol. As a United fan I’m sad he retired since he did so much for my club but still lol.

[Brahvocado]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

The game is different now though. The speed at which everything happens means even simply pulling someone back who is breaking through on goal has a major impact.

Just the phrase "leave it in the hands of the guys on the field" is kind of silly, because currently those referees on the field are the source of most of these problems. If there was more consistency, a lot of this behavior wouldn't have even come about.

Diving didn't happen because attacking players are a bunch of cheats, it happened because attacking players would get absolutely mangled game after game and refs offered them very little protection, so in return those players start throwing themselves to the ground at increasingly lesser contact.

It's a complex problem tbh, and I definitely think you're a bit on the old school "game is gone" side which is fine, but it certainly makes the discussion more difficult to have.

This is why I always use Neymar as my first example, because he is hated by a lot of older players/fans/pundits, but I have a hard time faulting him for his behavior since he has gotten the absolute crap kicked out of him all game every game since he was 16 years old.

Again, I'm not advocating for embellishment and diving (especially not diving), I'm just saying it's a complicated problem and just letting the refs handle it is absolutely not a viable solution cause those guys are incompetent.

[KG]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

He’s not the only one saying that kind of stuff either. He’s just the first one to say the quiet part out loud. Many top managers have pointed out how absurd the schedule is getting for players while everything has already been condensed since things restarted. We are playing 3 international matches in a break during a pandemic? It’s certifiably insane.

The CL scheduling thing also gets ridiculous with the Tuesday/Wednesday switch when you’re playing them 3 straight weeks. There’s no good way to work that. They really should be playing all CL/EL matches on Wednesday for this season.

The fact that we’re playing international matches period during a pandemic is insane.

Come late January, it’s going to be rough if they don’t do something which we all know they won’t because of $.

It’s going to be a crawl to the finish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keirik]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

The game is different now though. The speed at which everything happens means even simply pulling someone back who is breaking through on goal has a major impact.

Just the phrase "leave it in the hands of the guys on the field" is kind of silly, because currently those referees on the field are the source of most of these problems. If there was more consistency, a lot of this behavior wouldn't have even come about.

Diving didn't happen because attacking players are a bunch of cheats, it happened because attacking players would get absolutely mangled game after game and refs offered them very little protection, so in return those players start throwing themselves to the ground at increasingly lesser contact.

It's a complex problem tbh, and I definitely think you're a bit on the old school "game is gone" side which is fine, but it certainly makes the discussion more difficult to have.

This is why I always use Neymar as my first example, because he is hated by a lot of older players/fans/pundits, but I have a hard time faulting him for his behavior since he has gotten the absolute crap kicked out of him all game every game since he was 16 years old.

Again, I'm not advocating for embellishment and diving (especially not diving), I'm just saying it's a complicated problem and just letting the refs handle it is absolutely not a viable solution cause those guys are incompetent.

I’m definitely on the older school style. I don’t agree that any of my argument is “silly” but it is what it. Definitely makes the conversation harder with that stance but whatever.

It really doesn’t matter to me why diving happened. It still has zero place in the game. Same with embellishments. It’s not a necessary part of the game because by nature its making something out of nothing or very little. If a player nudges you in a grown man or woman’s sport, that doesn’t mean you should have some right to intentionally let your legs go so you fall down or roll around as if you we’re actually injured. Consistency has always been a problem in every sport where human beings decide rules. That’s part of the nature of sports. Interpretation. VAR isn’t helping things at all and I think the Arsenal game was a perfect example of that. It’s still an interpretation by the same referees but now they are being asked to review things one sided without taking the entire sequence into consideration. If you are going to punish Pepe, you HAVE to punish the Leeds player also. Neither is an accepted play in the sport.

The game is different. It’s true. It’s bigger, faster, stronger that it ever has been. Yet the strength of mortal men seems to leave their bodies these days whenever they are remotely touched because instead of playing the game, they are looking to hopefully get players sent off or get a pk at every single opportunity. These aren’t cases of players getting mauled these days. Those days are long gone. We are already at a point where physicality is limited. Are we really making progress still when we are now at a point where every bit of contact leaves players writhing in pain feigning it?

[Brahvocado]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

I’m definitely on the older school style. I don’t agree that any of my argument is “silly” but it is what it. Definitely makes the conversation harder with that stance but whatever.

It really doesn’t matter to me why diving happened. It still has zero place in the game. Same with embellishments. It’s not a necessary part of the game because by nature its making something out of nothing or very little. If a player nudges you in a grown man or woman’s sport, that doesn’t mean you should have some right to intentionally let your legs go so you fall down or roll around as if you we’re actually injured. Consistency has always been a problem in every sport where human beings decide rules. That’s part of the nature of sports. Interpretation. VAR isn’t helping things at all and I think the Arsenal game was a perfect example of that. It’s still an interpretation by the same referees but now they are being asked to review things one sided without taking the entire sequence into consideration. If you are going to punish Pepe, you HAVE to punish the Leeds player also. Neither is an accepted play in the sport.

The game is different. It’s true. It’s bigger, faster, stronger that it ever has been. Yet the strength of mortal men seems to leave their bodies these days whenever they are remotely touched because instead of playing the game, they are looking to hopefully get players sent off or get a pk at every single opportunity. These aren’t cases of players getting mauled these days. Those days are long gone. We are already at a point where physicality is limited. Are we really making progress still when we are now at a point where every bit of contact leaves players writhing in pain feigning it?

I don’t necessarily disagree that this kind of behavior should be weeded out of the game, and I’m fine with punishing diving, I just think it’s very hard to punish embellishment. Where do you draw the line, and how exactly do you decide where the line is etc.

I’d much rather see the root of the problem addressed, and that is the standard of refereeing.

To be clear, I don’t think your opinions are silly at all, I just disagree with some of them. The only thing I said was silly was your assertion that the players be left to it more often and decisions left to the refs on the field, because this current crop of referees are very bad at their jobs.

VAR is not a bad addition to the game. The concept itself is fine, and other leagues have implemented it much better with much better success. The problem in the premier league isn’t VAR, it’s the premier league itself.

[Keirik]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

I don’t necessarily disagree that this kind of behavior should be weeded out of the game, and I’m fine with punishing diving, I just think it’s very hard to punish embellishment. Where do you draw the line, and how exactly do you decide where the line is etc.

I’d much rather see the root of the problem addressed, and that is the standard of refereeing.

To be clear, I don’t think your opinions are silly at all, I just disagree with some of them. The only thing I said was silly was your assertion that the players be left to it more often and decisions left to the refs on the field, because this current crop of referees are very bad at their jobs.

VAR is not a bad addition to the game. The concept itself is fine, and other leagues have implemented it much better with much better success. The problem in the premier league isn’t VAR, it’s the premier league itself.

There is some I agree with in all of this. I just don’t think there is a way to figure out what the root of a problem is. We can say diving happens because refs aren’t consistent but we can probably also make an argument that refs aren’t consistent because of all the embellishment, play acting, and diving thry have to weed through now.

I think if you address both at the same time you’re on thr right track. Train better referees or more all encompassing VAR and severely punish those that embellish and cheat this game the way they do. Imagine if they had sent off both players in the Arsenal game and started down that path. I think we would be onto so,etching there.

The drawing of the line for where to punish embellishment is difficult. It is. But it’s still better to attempt to solve that issue as well because it’s not going away without punishments handed out.

[Brahvocado]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

There is some I agree with in all of this. I just don’t think there is a way to figure out what the root of a problem is. We can say diving happens because refs aren’t consistent but we can probably also make an argument that refs aren’t consistent because of all the embellishment, play acting, and diving thry have to weed through now.

I think if you address both at the same time you’re on thr right track. Train better referees or more all encompassing VAR and severely punish those that embellish and cheat this game the way they do. Imagine if they had sent off both players in the Arsenal game and started down that path. I think we would be onto so,etching there.

The drawing of the line for where to punish embellishment is difficult. It is. But it’s still better to attempt to solve that issue as well because it’s not going away without punishments handed out.

Agree with everything except the first part. Diving first entered the game specifically as a response to players not being protected enough by refs and defenders getting away with everything.

I do agree refs have a lot of nonsense they have to deal with, but the English refs I have zero sympathy for. They make no attempt whatsoever to help themselves, even with all the tools at their disposal.

[Keirik]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Agree with everything except the first part. Diving first entered the game specifically as a response to players not being protected enough by refs and defenders getting away with everything.

I do agree refs have a lot of nonsense they have to deal with, but the English refs I have zero sympathy for. They make no attempt whatsoever to help themselves, even with all the tools at their disposal.

I just think that if the root of the problem really were the referees missing everything in England, we wouldn't be seeing diving rampant everywhere like we do.World Cup, Italy, Champions League, Spain, England, et al.....its everywhere.

Hell i think the Italian league historically blows England out of the water when it comes to diving and embellishment lol

[Krebstar]

Re: 2020-2021 English Football Thread

Well, that match had a bit of everything.

Maupay missing a penalty? Perfect.