Veteran/Rookie speed scaling according to Donny Moore

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jr.

It's interesting that you think that the electronic timers "break" causing an increase in the times. Many studies have shown that this difference is there, but because of human error, not technological error from the electronic timer. It makes more sense to me to think that human error (human timer having to watch and react to a first move and gauge when a fast-moving object passes some discriminate line) is the cause for the difference than a laser. You say lack of reliability in the electronic timer, I say lack of reliability in humans. Here is a recent (2009) study from the Journal of Exercise Physiology about this difference: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...,d.eXY&cad=rja The link will direct you to open a Word Document with the article. I guess it's just preference, but I would think a computer designed specifically for this would out-perform humans.

The P3DX does break. That isn't what I think, that is a fact. That is why National also publishes the hand times. Otherwise, there would be no need for the hand times to be a matter of record. Keep in mind that the P3DX is started at the same moment as the primary hand timer - both are started at the same time by the same timer - by hand. The only difference is that the P3DX stops electronically and the primary timer stops his hand timer by hand. Also, when the P3DX breaks, it doesn't just give times that are too slow, sometimes it gives times that are way too fast. The issues with the P3DX have to do with the starting time and the latency.

It happens a lot with the 10 yard and 20 yard splits too, which is why National started experimenting with the starting laser (you could see them at the sides of the starting line) a couple of years ago. They don't publish those results, however. I have it on good authority that even with the laser timing, many players will stop running at the combine once they see their inflated (higher times) results. This same person told me back in 2012 via email, and this is a direct quote so pardon the spelling:

"all the Olymic timing will be just a test for the next few years, won't count and won't even be published or sent to teams.
Won't work, guys will stop running when their times are all inflated anyway. Numbers will always be 6 times we get, even if it's 8 times in 3 years we'll still use the same 6 we do now."

This person is a professional scout and has been doing it for decades. It is his firm belief that the laser starting won't catch on, and as you can see, National still doesn't publish those results. So as it stands today, we don't really have a true electronic time because the ET is started by hand (synched with the primary timer) and stopped electronically. A true electronic time would be started by laser and stopped by laser, but that isn't how they do it at the combine.

[Jr.]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

The P3DX does break. That isn't what I think, that is a fact. That is why National also publishes the hand times. Otherwise, there would be no need for the hand times to be a matter of record. Keep in mind that the P3DX is started at the same moment as the primary hand timer - both are started at the same time by the same timer - by hand. The only difference is that the P3DX stops electronically and the primary timer stops his hand timer by hand. Also, when the P3DX breaks, it doesn't just give times that are too slow, sometimes it gives times that are way too fast. The issues with the P3DX have to do with the starting time and the latency. It happens a lot with the 10 yard and 20 yard splits too, which is why National started experimenting with the starting laser (you could see them at the sides of the starting line) a couple of years ago. They don't publish those results, however. I have it on good authority that even with the laser timing, many players will stop running at the combine once they see their inflated (higher times) results. This same person told me back in 2012 via email, and this is a direct quote so pardon the spelling: "all the Olymic timing will be just a test for the next few years, won't count and won't even be published or sent to teams. Won't work, guys will stop running when their times are all inflated anyway. Numbers will always be 6 times we get, even if it's 8 times in 3 years we'll still use the same 6 we do now." This person is a professional scout and has been doing it for decades. It is his firm belief that the laser starting won't catch on, and as you can see, National still doesn't publish those results. So as it stands today, we don't really have a true electronic time because the ET is started by hand (synched with the primary timer) and stopped electronically. A true electronic time would be started by laser and stopped by laser, but that isn't how they do it at the combine.

Does the NFL not have access to the timing equipment used in the Olympics? Or do they just not want to spend the money for it? Seems like with all of the emphasis placed on timed events, they would want the most accurate information.

And BTW, that study I posted, the timing mechanism they used was started and stopped by a laser. The start laser was positioned at hip level and was activated when the hips moved into it. They mentioned that as a possible limit; that it may be tripped by a swinging arm instead of the hip.

[StefJoeHalt]

This is only a guess but maybe NFL has contract with makers of P3DX?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jr.]

Quote: Originally Posted by StefJoeHalt

This is only a guess but maybe NFL has contract with makers of P3DX? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good point. The NFL loves their exclusivity deals.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jr.

Does the NFL not have access to the timing equipment used in the Olympics? Or do they just not want to spend the money for it? Seems like with all of the emphasis placed on timed events, they would want the most accurate information. And BTW, that study I posted, the timing mechanism they used was started and stopped by a laser. The start laser was positioned at hip level and was activated when the hips moved into it. They mentioned that as a possible limit; that it may be tripped by a swinging arm instead of the hip.

They do. They started the Olympic-style testing in 2012. The paper that you linked to in your previous post states that they used the pressure pad to start the timing.

"The timing system was triggered when the subject removed their hand from the pressure pad at the beginning of the sprint and timing data were recorded when the subject passed through the laser sensors"

The electronic timing system is the same one that I personally own, the Brower Speedtrap II. The start is initiated by a pressure pad that you place your thumb on while in your stance. When your thumb lifts off of the ground, the timer starts. Once you pass through the final laser-reflector system, the timer stops.

This method is different from the ones that are used at the combine. At the combine, the official times are all hand-started, even the electronic timer, which is synchronized to the primary starter's hand timer. Therefore, the primary starter's hand time and the electronic time both start at the same moment.

The olympic-style testing that National has experimented with since 2012 uses a laser to not only stop the electronic timer, but to also START the electronic timer. Brower also makes a laser starter, which measures movement with a laser to start the timer instead of the pressure pad. The system in the link below has both the pressure pad and the laser-starter.

http://www.eliteathleteinc.com/speed...stem-wireless/

When you watch players run at the combine, post-2012, you can see the laser start gates. The first image shows the laser start gates. These are the yellow boxes in the image on the starting line. The second attached image shows Chris Johnson in 2008. Notice that the laser start gates are not there, and you won't find them prior to 2012.

The NFL was experimenting with the laser starting gates, but only experimentally. They don't release those results to the teams and are not included in the official PDFs. Like my inside source said in his email correspondence to me in 2012, many players would skip the combine knowing that their times are slower than what they would be at their Pro Days. Most schools won't sink the money into having the electronic timing system, and most players won't run if they think their times will be "slow", albeit, more accurate.

[bgoffner]

OMG... everyone went on and on about hand timers and speed. Thats not the point. the point is... Dez Bryant is not the fastest WR but hes top 3.. Revis or not the fastest CB but theyre the best.. how does EA make it where SPEED doesnt dominate at every position? It helps but not dictate the game? Dri Archer is not better than L Bell in real life but how does EA pull that off in the game?????

[D81SKINS]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Game speed is a complete myth. Players are never faster on the field. "Game Speed" is a product of athletic ability combined with anticipation, reaction, and technique. Jerry Rice was never faster than a 4.58 over the course of 40 yards, but watch some of his route-running cutups from old 49er practices and you will see why he was able to turn a 1-yard cushion into 6 yards of separation after the top of his route. His ability to keep up that "4.58 speed" through his breaks without slowing down considerably allowed him to do so. He didn't play faster; his technique allowed him to not slow down as much as his competition did when reacting to his breaking ability. "Game Speed" is about technique, not speed.

I would just say adrenaline does make for some guys being able to do things on the field that others cant. It's not always just what they ran on the track and technique.
How does a scout measure this?
It's about what they do IN GAMES.

[Trick13]

Quote: Originally Posted by bgoffner

OMG... everyone went on and on about hand timers and speed. Thats not the point. the point is... Dez Bryant is not the fastest WR but hes top 3.. Revis or not the fastest CB but theyre the best.. how does EA make it where SPEED doesnt dominate at every position? It helps but not dictate the game? Dri Archer is not better than L Bell in real life but how does EA pull that off in the game?????

Use of the "technique" ratings at a larger or wider scale. Honestly, this should be obvious by now. In terms of raw physical ability, there is not that much separating the best in the game from bottom of rosters. The technicians, the craftsmen, the guys who spend countless hours studying film are the guys that consistently isolate themselves as the best of the best.

The techniques, and knowing, without thinking,which to use are what separates starters from probowlers.

It is time for EA to put a greater emphasis on the "technique" ratings in order to more accurately portray the NFL in their game...


Take OL/DL interactions - currently STR rating still dictates win/loss outcomes - which is ridiculous - STR should only be determining which player is gaining/losing ground - PBK vs FMV/PMV should determine how long the block is maintained for passing situations and BKS vs RBK should determine how long blocks are maintained during running situations. STR only should factor into the tie checks for determining which way the two players are moving. Now obviously angles and leverage would have to be factored into the equation - but STR should not determine how long blocks are held - the lone exception being as a variable within bull rush scenarios....