Ian Pockets and DE Play

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

I'm not sure I agree with the description the defender sucks the Olineman in. When you are pass blocking you are in a retreat position anyways and defenders have opportunities to make moves. If they "suck" Olineman in then it is only for the opportunity to make moves, which Madden/NCAA needs to step up big time. I've seen some community day movies and there is something I really do not like and that is guys on the pass rush getting pancaked? To me this makes no sense. How do you pancake a guy with your shoulder when you are in a retreat position? And not only that the guy is aware of you and trying to take you on. They need to rethink how pancakes should work. Right now they just have them as a ratings progression mechanic for the Olinemen and you see alot of unrealistic pancakes. I mean these are NFL players on BOTH sides of the ball. How does an Olinemen get up to 5 pancakes or more a game?

The community guys and I all saw this as well - apparently what has happened is an animation issue - way too many of the "failed special moves" actually have the defender falling down instead of just getting locked back into "engaged"...this got passed on to the dev team immediately and I hear they are going to get fixed.

[Ian_Cummings]

Hey guys,
So I looked around all morning and put together a video of basically what would be a very small (but core) set of edge pass rush moves for whenever the time would come that we attack this OL/DL re-vamp. Obviously we'd have a lot more variety and try to do some player-styles too, but this is just a nice sampling of moves. If you want to see more specific ones (like bull rush or something), let me know and I can look for them.




Implementation wise, the way it might work could be something like:
1. Initial moves go to... ->
2. Lowered Locomotion (very short time, if at all) which goes to... ->
3. Get Engaged Moves ->

3a. All the "Get Engaged" moves would have branch windows that allow you to break out of the engagement. These would be trigger the "Non-Engaged" pass rush moves in the video. ->

4. If you don't get out of the move during the branch window, you get "engaged", which would be the looping 2 man "rip-sunk" animation (or a normal Head-Up animation obviously too based on your gap / pass rush assignment). This could loop for a really short time (i.e. maybe 2 steps) or all the way around the pocket if we want to. Key control details for these looping animations are:
4a. Be ever-so-slightly "steer-able" so you feel like you're still in control. The better you are as a DL, the more steering control / feel you have. This part bugged me about 2k because those edge rushing animations (like Too Tall Jones) were just really long canned animations.
4b. Be "branch-able" at any time for special moves or sacks. Again, the thing that bugged me about 2k's was though they could branch out into sacks, you couldn't do anything as a user during that time. I'd really like to get the guy looping around the edge then be able to set him up with a sick spin move a la Freeney.


So the reason I am doing this is because I am hoping to get your feedback...just check out the moves and let me know what you think. Where can they be improved, or, if they are un-salvageable, do we need to re-capture any of these? Or do they look good to go?


I know off-hand my personal feedback is often that the OL looks like he is giving up a little bit (always a big problem in mocap), but that can obviously be fixed by the animators as they transfer the mocap to game-ready anim data. Another question I had for you all is...what is the desired behavior after the OL gets beat? I noticed in the first clip in the 2k8 video the OL turn and ran after the DL that just beat him, whereas I think most of our capture (and logic) would have him actually get back to pass blocking and look for the next possible threat. Thoughts?

PS is there a way to embed Vimeo videos?

[drlw322]

Pass Rush Mocap for Madden from


hey ian thanks posting, what i would like to see is some animation where the d-line and o-line shoving each other back and forth ( hand fighting ). i would like to see also a pin animation where the d-line slips and the o-line falls on top of him (1 min mark of the you tube vid), another one would be reach animation where they are engaged but reaches for the QB just some examples

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by drlw322

Pass Rush Mocap for Madden from hey ian thanks posting, what i would like to see is some animation where the d-line and o-line shoving each other back and forth ( hand fighting ). i would like to see also a pin animation where the d-line slips and the o-line falls on top of him (1 min mark of the you tube vid) just some examples

That is like...the best video ever.

Seriously, this is awesome reference. Like I said, we'll have tons of variety and I think we'll get it all from this reference.

We've actually captured the OL pin to the ground animation before but it was so dominant we have been kind of staying away from it...might as well put it in one of these days for big mismatches.

I was more or less showing how edge rushing and pocket forming would work in the original video. I think the "head-up" pass blocking would be accomplished by doing a really fast repeated series of moves like in this video (instead of two guys looping in place like they do now).

[ezekiel55]

Ian,

One thing I noticed in your Mo-Cap session videos is that the actors werent violent enough...I know that sounds weird, but watching an NFL game O-line D-Line battles are like war. The trenches need more life and speed in my opinion.

This level of intensity will probably be difficult to incorporate due to the safety of your mo-cap talent, but hopefully there can be an urgency and intensity added to all your animation packages.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Hey guys, So I looked around all morning and put together a video of basically what would be a very small (but core) set of pass rush moves for whenever the time would come that we attack this OL/DL re-vamp. Obviously we'd have a lot more variety and try to do some player-styles too, but this is just a nice sampling of moves. If you want to see more specific ones (like bull rush or something), let me know and I can look for them. Implementation wise, the way it might work could be something like: 1. Initial moves go to... -> 2. Lowered Locomotion (very short time, if at all) which goes to... -> 3. Get Engaged Moves -> 3a. All the "Get Engaged" moves would have branch windows that allow you to break out of the engagement. These would be trigger the "Non-Engaged" pass rush moves in the video. -> 4. If you don't get out of the move during the branch window, you get "engaged", which would be the looping 2 man "rip-sunk" animation (or a normal Head-Up animation obviously too based on your gap / pass rush assignment). This could loop for a really short time (i.e. maybe 2 steps) or all the way around the pocket if we want to. Key control details for these looping animations are: 4a. Be ever-so-slightly "steer-able" so you feel like you're still in control. The better you are as a DL, the more steering control / feel you have. This part bugged me about 2k because those edge rushing animations (like Too Tall Jones) were just really long canned animations. 4b. Be "branch-able" at any time for special moves or sacks. Again, the thing that bugged me about 2k's was though they could branch out into sacks, you couldn't do anything as a user during that time. I'd really like to get the guy looping around the edge then be able to set him up with a sick spin move a la Freeney. So the reason I am doing this is because I am hoping to get your feedback...just check out the moves and let me know what you think. Where can they be improved, or, if they are un-salvageable, do we need to re-capture any of these? Or do they look good to go? I know off-hand my personal feedback is often that the OL looks like he is giving up a little bit (always a big problem in mocap), but that can obviously be fixed by the animators as they transfer the mocap to game-ready anim data. Another question I had for you all is...what is the desired behavior after the OL gets beat? I noticed in the first clip in the 2k8 video the OL turn and ran after the DL that just beat him, whereas I think most of our capture (and logic) would have him actually get back to pass blocking and look for the next possible threat. Thoughts? PS is there a way to embed Vimeo videos?

Those are good. I'm also looking for stuff like this



Haynesworth sets McNeil up here. He takes his first step outside and then moves back to McNeil's inside shoulder. Also notice KGB. He does not move in and get stuck onto or ridden by the Guard. He hand fights with the Guard and loops around. The Guard releases him and attempts to pick up Haynesworth but it is too late. The big man splits there attempt to double. Of course I think Ideally what McNeil was probably supposed to do is slide back and try to pick up KGB.

I would definitely recommend Bull Rush and one nobody has done and that is Speed Rush.

[drlw322]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

That is like...the best video ever. Seriously, this is awesome reference. Like I said, we'll have tons of variety and I think we'll get it all from this reference. We've actually captured the OL pin to the ground animation before but it was so dominant we have been kind of staying away from it...might as well put it in one of these days for big mismatches. I was more or less showing how edge rushing and pocket forming would work in the original video. I think the "head-up" pass blocking would be accomplished by doing a really fast repeated series of moves like in this video (instead of two guys looping in place like they do now).

no problem ian just want to help madden to be a game that everyone can say the best football game out there.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by drlw322

Pass Rush Mocap for Madden from hey ian thanks posting, what i would like to see is some animation where the d-line and o-line shoving each other back and forth ( hand fighting ). i would like to see also a pin animation where the d-line slips and the o-line falls on top of him (1 min mark of the you tube vid), another one would be reach animation where they are engaged but reaches for the QB just some examples

Nice video.