Does EA Know Madden is not that great?

[mjb2124]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

Given that, I can't believe a suit would come in and say, "Add a football helmet to every introduction and screw it up further by [insert everything that was wrong about the player introductions here]" and the Tiburon devs would be powerless to stand up and say "No, it shouldn't be that way".

As I worked in software development companies before, I can believe it. I'm a network engineer so I don't deal with development directly, but I spoke to the developers quite often. One of which actually did develop video games a few years ago (and left the video game industry because he said it was the most stressful, painful job he's ever had).

You'd be surprised by how often a developer would complain to me how something was broke or how they were being told to implement it completely wrong, but it's what the bigwigs wanted so they did it that way. It's all from up top and I believe many companies function this way (at least all the one's I've worked for).

So in your scenario there might be one Tech Lead in that meeting along with a higher up, directors, producers, marketing.... They come up with the ideas/changes and formulate the project plan that's given to the developers. The developers follow it and implement it the best they can within the time frame. Maybe the higher-ups and producers/directors think the player introductions, models, presentation etc... are all fine? I wouldn't doubt that they do.

I don't know if EA functions exactly this way, but I assume it's pretty close. The NFL drops a deadline as to when the game has to be released (as does MLB with baseball games) and they just need to get it done before then. What they do in between is anyone's guess.

[griffy97]

Just my two cents here:

I think we all agree this exclusivity stinks for gamers. Not only has Madden rested on its laurels, but look at MLB 2k6? A seriously flawed game, but if you wanna play baseball on Xbox or 360, that's your game.

Since we, the gaming public, have no other options, and since Electronic Arts loves to cannibalize the competition by signing exclusivity licenses with the NFL, NCAA, NASCAR, etc, I can only hope they make another move that would actually make some sense and re-acquire Visual Concepts. Without question, VC has the most innovative football engine and could do WONDERS on the next-gen hardware. Tiburon's a joke. Look at its NASCAR games. Absolutely a disgrace when you consider that Papryus had a superior physics model SIX YEARS AGO! Heck, the NASCAR Heat series (as dated as it is, although with some fantastic mods) is, to this day, superior to anything EA Sports has EVER offered for a racing simulation.

I can honestly say I have not purchased a new Madden game since 2002 (with the expansion mode). I also believe, IMHO, that was the last year EA offered a superior football game. On the flipside, while I truly don't care for the hitting model, I DID purchase MVP 2005 and think it's a quality game, one of the finest BB games ever made. But, we can all understand how that happened: EA was lagging behind High Heat, ASB, and WSB when it came to gameplay and realized its TP series had become an utter joke. In other words, COMPETITION forced them to become better. Another example was NHL 2004, which was arguably the best EA hockey title since their epic NHL 94. Why? Black Box Games, which created the original NHL 2k on the Dreamcast, was bought to develop the game. Why? Because NHL 2kx was the FAR superior game. Again, EA reacts to competition and lagging sales.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but just needed to vent. I will say that my ability to avoid the Madden series has been greatly influenced by the fantastic roster projects and mod communities that keep our favorite games fresh and updated. A gigantic KUDOS to all of you!!

[poopie]

when NFL players stop playing it.and stop playing in the maden bowl.nothing gonna change.those are the only things EA cares about

[koolbubbaice]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

And I would agree with you. But it reinforces my feeling that there's something seriously wrong at Tiburon and/or EA. I'm sure different companies have different procedures they follow in terms of the creative process taken to create a videogame. And it's obvious that the marketing dept. at EA wields a lot of power/too much power. You'll never see an EASports game delayed for creative reasons; the games get released like clockwork. This is in comparison to the relationship between Bungie/Microsoft, where the suits would love to release Halo 3 when they want, yet Bungie's strong enough to say the game won't be ready until it's ready. I saw a show on E3 recently where the suits at Microsoft tried to get the guys developing Gears of War to remove the chainsaw for the E3 demo. The developers fought to keep it in and they were right - it was one of the coolest parts about the game that everyone loved. The suits conceded the right decision was made. I think back in 2003, people flipped out when the 2K folks decided to hold NFL2k4 an additional month, and it likely suffered in sales because of it. If I'm not mistaken they had just signed the agreement with ESPN and added some peripheral ESPN detail and additional online content, something that would come fully into fruition in NFL2K5. Which brings me back to Tiburon. Either these guys are totally spineless, choose to exist in a vacuum and not acknowledge there are other devs out there doing better things, they don't know their jobs, or all of the above. I understand there has to be give and take between generally what the suits want (money) and the devs want (quality). That being said, I don't see how you nail a feature like stadiums yet miss so horribly on something as important as properly instituting a true next-gen football engine. They have a state of the art facility created to produce football games. Madden as a game is one of the iconic games of our generation. We've all seen video of actual NFL players begging to be better represented in their games. Given that, I can't believe a suit would come in and say, "Add a football helmet to every introduction and screw it up further by [insert everything that was wrong about the player introductions here]" and the Tiburon devs would be powerless to stand up and say "No, it shouldn't be that way". I apologize for going on such a long rant. But this is just something as simple as player introductions. There are too many areas to point at where this next generation game is lacking. Player models. Player movement. Player interaction. Presentation. Either way, there's something wrong at Tiburon/EA. People can't say "It's EA's catering to casual fans that's causing the problems". That's just one of a lot of things wrong.

All this means nothing as long as the ppl who complain & critize EA (myself included) continue to buy their sports title..EA see's dollars.A great yr for Madden isn't about the score it gets, its the revenue the gamee brings in on a yearly basis..& it grows every yr..That tells EA they are 'doing somthing right', which I don't agree with..If EA put out Madden 07 with nothing but single games, & no improvements, & sold 5 million, It would be labled a huge Success by EA..Companies as big as EA only see dollar signs..What sells is 'good', what doesn't is bad..It's all black & white with no grey area..I'm sure EA's marketing is holding Tiburon's creativity in check, & any idea they come up with must be approved first..EA truly has gamers in mind last..The dec are being made by non gaming types..Marketers who know how to make money & nothing else..They have no clue what gamers want..I'm sure Marketing is behind the lame catch phrases, 'run to daylight' moniker. Every yr a EA sports game has one.. The Haymaker. The Cone. Frestyle. The Playmaker. Like they are preped up to be the main selling point, & they bombard us with it constantly via Ads, interviews, & commercials.. What bothers me is EA, makes it sound like they are new ideas.. Like with momentum in NCAA..EA makes it sound like this is a new thing & is very imporant (which it is), yet, like Homefield advantage was neglected for yrs..

[xylocaine]

Best scenario would be for EA to hire the 2K team with their talent and EA's marketing it would be a huge game!

I agree, if we buy it, then EA won't change.

[LBzrule]

I wish Ubisoft would do a football game. They bought the NFL FEVER engine. I hope they use it. When they purchased it, it did not sound like they were going to wait until the deal with EA and the NFL was up to do something. I would like to see what they would offer. Anyways, EA at this point is sitting in the driver's seat. If the NFL opens up after this deal and allows multiple gaming franchises there will be alot of competition out there.

[DrJones]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

And I would agree with you. But it reinforces my feeling that there's something seriously wrong at Tiburon and/or EA. I'm sure different companies have different procedures they follow in terms of the creative process taken to create a videogame. And it's obvious that the marketing dept. at EA wields a lot of power/too much power. You'll never see an EASports game delayed for creative reasons; the games get released like clockwork. This is in comparison to the relationship between Bungie/Microsoft, where the suits would love to release Halo 3 when they want, yet Bungie's strong enough to say the game won't be ready until it's ready. I saw a show on E3 recently where the suits at Microsoft tried to get the guys developing Gears of War to remove the chainsaw for the E3 demo. The developers fought to keep it in and they were right - it was one of the coolest parts about the game that everyone loved. The suits conceded the right decision was made. I think back in 2003, people flipped out when the 2K folks decided to hold NFL2k4 an additional month, and it likely suffered in sales because of it. If I'm not mistaken they had just signed the agreement with ESPN and added some peripheral ESPN detail and additional online content, something that would come fully into fruition in NFL2K5. Which brings me back to Tiburon. Either these guys are totally spineless, choose to exist in a vacuum and not acknowledge there are other devs out there doing better things, they don't know their jobs, or all of the above. I understand there has to be give and take between generally what the suits want (money) and the devs want (quality). That being said, I don't see how you nail a feature like stadiums yet miss so horribly on something as important as properly instituting a true next-gen football engine. They have a state of the art facility created to produce football games. Madden as a game is one of the iconic games of our generation. We've all seen video of actual NFL players begging to be better represented in their games. Given that, I can't believe a suit would come in and say, "Add a football helmet to every introduction and screw it up further by [insert everything that was wrong about the player introductions here]" and the Tiburon devs would be powerless to stand up and say "No, it shouldn't be that way". I apologize for going on such a long rant. But this is just something as simple as player introductions. There are too many areas to point at where this next generation game is lacking. Player models. Player movement. Player interaction. Presentation. Either way, there's something wrong at Tiburon/EA. People can't say "It's EA's catering to casual fans that's causing the problems". That's just one of a lot of things wrong.

There's a lot (though not 100%) of truth in this post. Don't be too hard on the devs, though. Devs (including producers) always want to fix problems, trust me. But everything they do on the game has to be "sold" to the higher-ups, and fixes aren't sexy. Higher-ups want flash, they want new features, they want things to market and put on bullet points on the back of the box. It's very difficult for devs to do both unless the development budget for the game is increased, which higher-ups don't want to do, or the devs kill themselves, which the devs (understandably) don't want to do. Sometimes, the dev team can successfully push back, sometimes they can't -- depends on the personalities involved. And yes, shipping on time is priority # 1, 2, and 3. If you put out a brilliant game but miss your ship date by a couple weeks, and sales droop as a result, expect bad things to happen.

Disclaimer: I've never worked on Madden or at Tiburon, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Things can vary greatly depending on the game team, the "higher-ups" involved, and about 50 other factors.

[DrJones]

Quote: Originally Posted by xylocaine

Best scenario would be for EA to hire the 2K team with their talent and EA's marketing it would be a huge game! I agree, if we buy it, then EA won't change.

Dev team talent is not the issue.