Will Madden 10 Support Route Based Passing / Timed Passing Patterns

[MRxAmazing]

Quote: Originally Posted by dannydufflebags

I would also like to see some back shoulder routes, and normal fade routes in every playbook and multiple formations. Double moves need to actually have an effect on the defender as well. (assuming they actually bite).

You mean something like this?

[Golden28]

Quote: Originally Posted by MRxAmazing

You mean something like this?

My absolute favourite video Ian has posted so far.

Will only be eclipsed by an OL/DL video IMO

[Valdarez]

Maybe it's just me, but the footwork in that video looks all wrong when the WR is making the cut back to the left. The WR is getting a huge amount of turn for that one foot plant. I don't think a human being could actually make that cut. I'm glad they slowed the video down, because the speed is so fast, it looks like there is a blink on the cut to the outside (left).

With regards to interceptions, Madden has an unrealistic amount of interceptions in a game. Even when QBs make bad decisions in the real NFL or throw into coverage, they don't get picked as often as you see in Madden. APF is on the other side of the interception spectrum, players should get picked more often, however APF2K8 makes up that difference a little bit with their tipped passing mechanics, which aren't exactly realistic, but to me at least, makes the game really fun and provides a lot of those 'wow' moments.

[shttymcgee]

What you guys are talking about is not a timing-based system, moreover, its just the logic of the game accounting for the break of the route. I agree, that it is very frustrating when you want to throw an out cut before the receiver makes his break and lead him to the sideline. Of course now you can't, because the ball is thrown up the field and behind the cut, forcing you to wait until the receiver breaks his route, thus making the throw late. This needs to be addressed first.

I think it would be very hard to truly implement a timing-based passing game because of the multiple variables involved and the overall lack of knowledge about these things from the average gamer. As an example, I will use a common west coast offense pass play, known for its emphasis on timing the breaks/distances of the route with the drop of the qb:

x.........................t..g..c..g..t..y........ ...................
.................................q................ ................z
........................................f......... .......................
..................................t............... .......................

West coasters call the play 22 z in
x runs a a streak-read unless they get 4 rushers weak, then he's gotta break his route into a slant
tb dual reads weak
fullback runs a swing route to the right
te runs a 6 yd spot route directly over the center
the flanker runs a 14 yd hook (8 steps if outside foot is up) that he will adjust to an dig to find a window

Here's where the timing comes in, the route distances are timed up with the qb's drop. The qb on his first step checks to see if the defense brings 4 weak, if they do, he immediately stops and throws the sight-adjustment slant route from the split end. If not, he continues on his 5 step drop, reading the drops of the lb's. If the backers drop too deep, or they vacate the middle, the qb delivers the ball to the te as soon as his 5th step hits. If the the te is covered on his 5th step, the qb hitches and throws the ball to the z, running the hook/dig, just as the receiver is settling in his break, thus timing the route so that the ball is thrown as the receiver is coming open. If the z is covered, the qb hitches again and throws the outlet to the fullback. Of course, the fb is hot if the slb or ss blitz.

The point is, do you think that this can be truly implemented in a video game? I picked this specific play because it is in the game. It doesn't work out this way due to a few reasons:
1. the depth of the routes are not correct. The flanker must run a 14 yd cut, not a 10 yard cut

2. the drop of the qb is not realistic and does not "time" up with the breaks of the routes. By making qb drops the proper depth and with a realistic drop time (must be coordinated with the speed of the rest of the players on the field) you could more closely represent what happens on the field.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Here's where the timing comes in, the route distances are timed up with the qb's drop. The qb on his first step checks to see if the defense brings 4 weak, if they do, he immediately stops and throws the sight-adjustment slant route from the split end. If not, he continues on his 5 step drop, reading the drops of the lb's. If the backers drop too deep, or they vacate the middle, the qb delivers the ball to the te as soon as his 5th step hits. If the the te is covered on his 5th step, the qb hitches and throws the ball to the z, running the hook/dig, just as the receiver is settling in his break, thus timing the route so that the ball is thrown as the receiver is coming open. If the z is covered, the qb hitches again and throws the outlet to the fullback. Of course, the fb is hot if the slb or ss blitz. The point is, do you think that this can be truly implemented in a video game?

I think you are focusing on the timing of the QB's drop and passing, versus what I was trying to call out with a timing passes during a route, which is the ability to throw either to a location knowing the receiver will be there, or to throw before a player makes their cut / slant because you know the player will be further into the route when they actually make the catch (like in APF2K8).

What you are suggesting and what I have suggested are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's not quite the mechanic I was referring to in the original post.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Maybe it's just me, but the footwork in that video looks all wrong when the WR is making the cut back to the left. The WR is getting a huge amount of turn for that one foot plant. I don't think a human being could actually make that cut. I'm glad they slowed the video down, because the speed is so fast, it looks like there is a blink on the cut to the outside (left).

Upon further review, I agree. He did not have a realistic amount of weight transfer and sprang out into his cut. At that speed he could not have shifted all his weight that quickly without breaking his ankle.

It's a small thing, but should be addressed because it could have a huge impact.

[Exonerated]

That video looked pretty realistic to me.

He's only ran about 5 yards before doing that double move. Its not like he was sprinting 20 yards downfield.

I do think a human being could make that cut. At the pace the animation was moving at, its very plausible.

What would be ridiculous if this was at full sprint, which I belive it is not.

[SA1NT401]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

One of the things that really lured me to APF2K8 was the passing game. The game has an actual pocket, that you can sit in and maneuver in, and real QB foot work coupled with multiple styles of passing (normal pass, side armed and so forth). What really made the game feel unique though is the ability to throw timed passing patterns. If you time a route properly, you can throw the ball before a player makes their cut or their slant and they will still be able to catch the ball. This comes into play in a couple of scenarios. Scenario 1 The WR is running a mid-post pattern. You read man coverage, and as the play progresses, you see the CB has outside coverage on the WR, barring any possible help from the safety, you can read this read will allow you to throw the ball before the WR ever makes his move / slant towards the post. This effectively allows you to hit in holes that you otherwise could not. Scenario 2 The WR is running a mid-post pattern from the left side of the field. You read Cover 3 based on a strong safety pulling from the right, and the LBs staying home. If the LB doesn't pick you pu in their zone and match your speed, then you know you have the hole over the middle of the field open, and can throw before your WR makes the cut. In Madden, route passing does not appear to work (at least not the way I can get it to work in APF2K8). In order for the receiver to make the catch, you typically have to wait until after they have made their cut/slant. This basically takes away a lot of the field and makes the passing much more difficult than necessary. It would be a great addition if Madden 10 supported Timed Passing patterns. It would really open up the passing game, add to the authenticity, and quite honestly make it a heck of a lot more fun.

The passing game Madden has not evolved since the early PS1 days. If anything it has severly declined on current gen consoles.

Hope they make some HUGE changes, which they seem to be doing.