Pregame suggestion to bench your catcher for calling a bad game?

[Heroesandvillains]

I got this prompt again about Russell Martin last night. Except this time, it said something to the effect that he could you a day off to 'work on his defensive skills.'

I think I'm still leaning towards these myriad of messages being defense related, whether or not the other ones imply defense being the cause.

On another note, my back up catcher Jesus Flores calls for a ridiculous amount of fastballs. Even when I step of, he's right back at it. Martin doesn't seem to do this.

[Geronimo22]

Quote: Originally Posted by Heroesandvillains

I got this prompt again about Russell Martin last night. Except this time, it said something to the effect that he could you a day off to 'work on his defensive skills.' I think I'm still leaning towards these myriad of messages being defense related, whether or not the other ones imply defense being the cause.

That is really interesting. Work on defensive skills? I would think that would have to imply passed balls and throwing out runners. Did you take Martin out?

Quote: Originally Posted by Heroesandvillains

On another note, my back up catcher Jesus Flores calls for a ridiculous amount of fastballs. Even when I step of, he's right back at it. Martin doesn't seem to do this.

Exactly! I find that is the M.O. of the young catchers! Repeative fastballs (in the same spot too!)

[Blzer]

I play every game with API off. I think I called it PCI earlier, my bad haha.

Oh, and I am not a culprit of keeping players in too long or anything. I use my subs probably more than anyone else on here, because I like to stay "loyal" to my players without making them seem angry at me haha.

It was funny, though... I think I once got the message in a situation where I had my reserve catcher play the day before, he took an o'fer, and McCann was red hot as well. I just don't understand the leadership message very much at this point in time.

[KingV2k3]

I sim all but my 3rd starters games, which I play...

I've seen all the "usual" messages repeatedly over the years, except this one...

I don't use PCI, but I do let the catcher call the game and rarely wave him off...

I have noticed this year, that different catchers call very different games...

Interesting stuff...

[Heroesandvillains]

Quote: Originally Posted by Geronimo22

That is really interesting. Work on defensive skills? I would think that would have to imply passed balls and throwing out runners. Did you take Martin out?

No. And he called another beauty.

Flores calls such a bad game that when I don't feel up to calling my own, I go with Martin.

Quote:

Exactly! I find that is the M.O. of the young catchers! Repeative fastballs (in the same spot too!)

It "seems" this way to me too.

[derelictojama]

Quote: Originally Posted by Geronimo22

Good stuff. Good work with recording your stats. I wanted ask you to clarify your study objective (I might have missed it earlier). Quickly, I just wanted to mention; It a tough proposition to judge if a catcher called a "good" game. I believe that it can't be based soley on stats. I'd like to believe a catcher can call a "good" game and the pitcher can lack execution or hitters can have great at bats. Not to mention, the classic, the umpire squezze "you like a fresh flordia orange all game" syndome, with causes walks and eventual meatballs. But that is besides the point because my opinions are based on conditions and not results. I prosume you are attempting to accomplish a result oriented study - By following the catchers suggestions to a tee, you are hoping to eliminate the theory that its based on a high percentage of "shaking" off the catcher. And then that would lead us to believe the notification is soley based on that catchers success rate (wins,strikeouts,etc). Just want to make sure Im following you correctly.

Yeah, useful to question my methodology, if only to make me sure I know what I'm doing.

Stats would be the starting point; if I go with a catcher's calls exclusively, and I throw a CG shutout, I figure he's done a good job; if my starter gets knocked out in the 4th, but the bullpen comes through, well then that's a mixed bag; and if everybody who comes out gets shelled, then I'm going to start questioning the catcher's calls. But overall stats are just the starting point; tracking a catcher's "era" or "k/bb" rate is very sketchy, for all the reasons you mentioned. (hence trying to be an rtts catcher being a good idea but VERY hard to actually practice; I can call a game like Steve Yeager or Pudge and if the pitcher has nothing, there's very little chance of success). As a former catcher, I'm looking at patterns, pitch choices, trends, breaking trends, that sort of thing. All of which is hard to track statistically, so my intention is to keep track of overall pitch selection, and then try to keep an eye on how the numbers built up--hence my looking in the 7th and seeing that Ross had, up to that point, called mostly fastballs, but then, in the 7th and later, he really started calling for the breaking stuff, and started encouraging me (as CJ Wilson) to expand the strike zone, and I ended up getting some guys late just waving at stuff way out of the zone; as if he and I had been setting guys up all day just to save the sliders and curves for the 8th and 9th. So yeah, I'm trying to actually pay attention not just to the numbers, but to the patterns and breakdowns. There will be some hard stats, but also just some conjecture, opinion and extrapolations; but I have to say, I'm kind of enjoying it, just to see how this feature works. I can see getting to the pennant races or postseason and deciding to suspend the experiment and actually make the best choices, but for now, I'm kind of enjoying the "don't think, just pitch" kind of game. That's what I always wanted my pitchers to do: trust me, I can't hit, I can't pitch, I am actually on this team because the only thing I can do is catch and call a game. So, if the catchers in this game really do have personalities, tendencies, hidden skills, I really, really want to know.

[derelictojama]

Just a little update, if anyone cares: still going almost exclusively with catcher calls (shook off Conger once when he wanted me to throw a 3-2 slider with no confidence to a power hitter--did not see any good outcome on that one--runners on base), and have been trying to track all sorts of things, but especially pitch selection. Overall everyone's been calling decent games, but very, very, very heavy on whatever pitch #1 is, usually a fastball of some sort. It seems to be working, though, and makes me wonder if I try to get too fancy with breaking stuff, when this approach isn't getting me shutouts, but I am getting quality starts and pretty fair success, and, without a notable increase in strike percentage or dropoff in Ks, I'm seeing lower pitch counts overall. My experience with Conger reminds me no pitcher would go with every call; I'm just going to try to keep track of when I don't.

[derelictojama]

posted this in the classic pitching thread, but since this part is relevant here, I'll post it, stats to follow (I think I got close to or up to 15 games on the catcher experiment, maybe closer to 20), but here are the impressions I have at the end (I think) of the "letting the catcher call the game" experiment:


"--going with catcher calls all the way (in other words, doing just what the API says) is not the answer. I knew I had been "cheating" in a way all along; I was going with the pitch, taking the location as advice, and sort of fudging a bit; the last 2 games, 1 with the cubs and 1 with the angels, I ABSOLUTELY went with catcher calls all the way, not questioning a thing and trying to put it exactly where they wanted. Results: Angels: Weaver 4.1 IP, 11h, 7er, 1k, 1bb (dontrelle willis let him down, allowed 2 or 3 inherited runners to score in a bad 5th inning all around); Cubs: Samardzija 5.0, 4 h, 4 r, 3 er, 4k, 3bb (on the same night he killed my Braves IRL--quick, someone call Alanis, is that irony or not?), followed by R. Wells 2.0, 4h, 4 er, 0bb, 0 k. So, either that is a big coinkydinky, or I had been essentially letting the catcher make the pitch selection, and then I had been using his location as advice. Now, I have to say, that's what classic is about--if you want me to hit THAT spot, I have to actually aim it WAY OVER HERE--which, as we have learned about classic, often means the pitch goes..... well, you name it, it can happen. So, numbers to follow, but the lesson is this: using API to suggest pitches is pretty good, as all 4 catchers I used were pretty good at mixing it up (relatively; they all relied heavily on the pitches in order, that is #1 got 50% or more of the calls, and #2 was pretty high, too; #4 & 5 rarely ever got used), particularly later in a starter's outing, and GENERALLY do a good job of both helping keep confidence high and staying away from low confidence pitches in tough situations (I say generally because both Ross & Conger now have asked me to throw low confidence breaking pitches in 3-2 counts where I really did not want to walk the guy--essentially asking me to hang a 3-2 breaking ball, with runners on base, in tight games--that's a strategy to be considered, but very, very carefully!). So, I would say, if you have trouble calling your own game, or get in a tight spot, see what your catcher has to say; I'd rely on him more for pitch selection than location, I guess. I'll say this: if you have confidence in a catcher, and have a decent pitcher, those first 3-4 innings can be a breeze; just let the catcher call the game until it gets tight (you throw a walk, you give up a couple hits in a row all of a sudden), and then start thinking. I imagine that's what a lot of real pitchers do; Hey, if I can throw my fastball and my change for 3 innings, get some quick outs, then I'll start breaking out the other stuff the next time through. And for that kind of basic thing, most catchers do a good job."

this is new to this post:

--my advice: work together as a real pitcher and catcher would; use him as a suggestion, and then throw what you want. But during this whole time, still only playing about 1 out of 6 games, I have yet to see the "bad catcher" message.

Maybe to really do this experiment right someone needs to work on it who is a play 162-er; but that I will never be, because I'm too invested in seeing my draft picks have long careers; I plan on getting through at least a decade, and I will eventually get one of the football games.... so I play the way I play. I'll post some stats, and some more ideas on how the catchers work, in my experience, and then probably go back to discussing these things in the classic pitching thread.

I am interested to hear if anyone does any more experimenting with catchers and finds out what the message is about; I'd actually like to see it, makes me feel like I'm missing out on a part of the game somehow.