What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

[Sundown]

Quote: Originally Posted by stillfeelme

Strategic wise: 1. Pick and roll settings and defensive matchup setting need to be rewritten. They need team logic defending one person. The setting are designed to how does ANY person on the team defend the pick and roll ball handler. When in reality teams may switch up defense based off who is the setting the pick and what you want to give up on the play. Example: You wouldn't have your non-agile big defend a pick and roll the same way your athletic big would. They need "Show" settings for pick and roll as well as "zone up" pick and roll and play well under the pick and roll for the big. Your defensive on ball/off ball defense should be broken down to how you defend on the perimeter vs. in the paint for both on ball and off ball.

This. So much this. Pick and roll schemes aren't determined just by a ball handler and his presumed matchup (as implemented currently), but also by the who the roll man's defender is, whether a switch would result in a major unfavorable mismatch for either defender, and whether the defense concedes either of those mismatches.

For example, the Warriors switch constantly-- but they never switch if Bogut is the roll defender, and only sometimes if Curry is the ball defender, depending on who the pick/roll man is:

1. A Lebron/Mozgov pick and roll would never have Bogut switch onto Lebron. Bogut is too slow even if Green or Iguodala can handle the switch onto Mozgov. In this case the Warriors would likely ice or have the ball defender go under the pick. Bogut in this case would stay near the paint to help on a Lebron drive or defend Mozgov as a roll man. Unfortunately this isn't a great situation for Bogut which is eventually why he stopped being played.

This is a case of Lebron not being switched onto because the roll defender is too slow.

2. A Lebron/Delly pick and roll would have Curry show hard while Iguodala goes under to recover on Lebron. Again, we see the Warriors NOT switch based on who set the pick and who is defending the screener.

This is a case of Lebron not being switched onto because the roll defender is small.

3. However, a Lebron/Mozgov pick and roll when Green is defending Mozgov WOULD result in a switch. Green has the length and speed to defend Lebron at least reasonably, and Iguodala can play ball denial on Mozgov at least temporarily. The same applies in any Lebron pick and roll with Shumpert or JR Smith because Klay/Livingston/Barnes can reasonably guard Lebron at least length and speed wise.

This is a case of Lebron being switched onto because both roll and ball defenders can handle the switch.

Right here you have a common staple situation in the NBA Finals involving the prototypical switching team where one player is defended differently in the pick and roll dependent on who the pick defender is. 2K's settings are inadequate because the ball handler can only be defended one way.

4. A Delly/Mozgov pick an roll probably wouldn't produce a switch when they are guarded by Curry/Green, but a Delly/Shumpert pick and roll guarded by Curry/Klay might.

Here is a case where the switch is determined by whether the ball defender can handle the switch and whether it might be advantageous to do so.

So in order to reproduce proper switching, 2K needs to allow situational switching based on whether the roll defender can handle the switch as well as the ball defender. The interface for this might be a bit tedious to set-- because it's really a setting for the DEFENSIVE player, and which players he can switch onto when involved in a pick and roll. One would need to set this for every defensive player tagging his potential matchups, or the offensive player in defensive settings needs a way to tag which defenders he can be switched onto by.

In this case, "Switch" would then need to be a new separate setting that can be set to No/When Available/Always-- this overrides the pick and roll setting when available, and when the switch isn't possible, the defense defaults to using the Ice/Over/Under settings.

Of course this becomes somewhat more complicated than the current settings, but NBA schemes aren't that simplistic and require this depth. One can always just rely on the auto settings, and it would be a huge help--a necessity actually- if team defensive settings can be saved outside of MyLeague.

[Sundown]

Another major issue is that even the Gap setting isn't "gappy" enough against players with no outside threat. Bogut rarely extends beyond the FT line on defense and spends his time mostly trying to avoid the 3 second call. Yet in 2K he's drawn out of the paint by players he has no business following out there.

There needs to be one more setting like "Drop to Paint" so that rim protectors can stay near or in the paint against players that are no threat outside. Currently there is no way to reproduce how most non-shooting bigs are played by other bigs. And there's no way to duplicate the infamous Bogut/Toney Allen "matchup" in the Grizzlies series.

[stillfeelme]

Sundown I agree with both posts posts. The pick roll settings in my opinion are just outdated and is begging to be re-written to provide how actual teams defend each player based off the strength and weakness of the roll man's defender. It would be complicated but like you said this is the NBA. The pick and roll settings are basically the major defense plays in the game. So we are missing a lot of how teams actually defend various players.

I also mentioned something about having settings that give on ball defense off ball determined by if the player is in the paint or perimeter. I agree that gap may not be enough. We need another setting called dare to shoot where the gap is so big like you mentioned when the player is on the perimeter on ball or off ball. The defender should basically be protecting the paint without getting a defensive 3 second call. So within arm lengths or so of the big in the paint

[LorenzoDC]

I just went through the thread again and I don't think anyone brought up transition defense. Basically, it's weak. Let's look at how each relevant defensive POE setting plays out.

Important to note: because teammate defensive transition performance is so bad, from what I can tell, all of what I write below is true whether your opponent is playing to Run in Transition, Some Crash, Some Get Back, or to Crash Offensive Boards:

Crash Offensive Boards: You should have a transition disadvantage for this, and you do. However, if you have a very strong offensive rebounding team versus your opponent, this setting doesn't really help you take full advantage of that, as it should. Hit to transition defense is greater than the benefit to offensive rebounding, so effectively, this becomes a less useful setting. This is partly because user offensive rebounding is still weak relative to CPU offensive rebounding.

Some Crash, Some Get Back: This is the neutral one, but it too suffers from the disadvantages of crashing offensive boards because your CPU teammates are bad at getting back, or take some kind of speed disadvantage relative to your opponents in getting back.

Limit Transition: This is the setting I find myself using the most because otherwise the opponent will build up too much transition momentum and easy baskets in the paint before my team can get back. You can limit this by taking control of your SF or best available player in transition to get under the hoop and into the paint as quickly as possible, because the AI is better at perimeter transition than it is at protecting the paint and the rim. You have to compensate and provide paint transition protection manually, and that helps. But you only really have a chance to do this with this setting. It works in spurts under Some Crash, Some Get Back, but you're always toast with Crashing Offensive Boards.

In short, the combination of the game's weaker user controlled performance in offensive rebounding and weak transition defense limits the usefulness of some of the POE's. That limits sim play and limits your options as a sim player for playing more than one style, particularity if you want to run n' gun and still play decent fact game pace defense.

[Sundown]

I think your "Dare to Shoot" setting would be the same or similar to my suggestion of a "Drop to Paint". Do you see it behaving differently in some situations?

One way to streamline the switch settings is by having one master switch setting and five positional roll defender settings for each player, so that you can configure who will switch onto the player when he is the ball handler in a pick and roll (and also if he is the roll man if you want to simplify, though there may be cases when the two are not the same):

Switch: Auto/Custom/Never/Always

Always -- works like the Switch setting now (not terribly useful)
Never -- disables switching and allows the current pick and roll Over/Under/Double/Hedge settings to work.
Auto -- will allow switches based on what the game determine are acceptable matchups for ball and roll defenders after the switch.
Custom -- enables the follow positional settings:

Switch From:
PG: Auto/Yes/No
SG: Auto/Yes/No
SF: Auto/Yes/No
PF: Auto/Yes/No
C: Auto/Yes/No

Auto -- allows game to determine whether a switch can happen from that positon to this defender, based on length and speed.
Yes -- allows a switch onto this player from that defensive positon.
No -- does not allow a switch onto this player from that defensive positon.

So in a Warriors/Cavs matchup, if I wanted manual settings, I would set:

Dellavedova: No on C if Bogut is playing. Yes on everything else.
Shumpert: As above.
Smith: As above.
Thompson: No on PG if Curry is playing. Yes on everything else.
Lebron: No on PG if Curry is playing. No on C if Bogut is playing. Yes on everything else.
Mozgov: No on PG. No on SG. Yes on everything else.

The problem with this is you would have to change the settings if one of the positions is subbed that necessitates a change in strategy, Green for Bogut at C for example.

Another approach would be to move these positional settings to the DEFENDERS as a setting called Can Switch Onto, with the five positional settings as above.

This is probably quite a bit better as analysts often talk about being able to defend 1-3 or 3-5. These settings can even be saved and would likely not need to be changed as much when defending different teams. For instances set Green to switch onto 1-5 and you're set. If he ends up in a pick and roll situation where the other defender can also make the switch (set in his own defensive switch settings), then the switch happens. Evaluation of the position of the offensive player being switched onto should include all positions the player is listed as playing, and probably not the position the player is actually assigned as to prevent assigning players out of position to take advantage of switch setting mismatches.

You may still need to make tweaks if an opposing team's positional player is anomalous in some way for his position and causes a mismatch with the settings, but this is relatively rare. And if that happens -- say the Cavs start running a lot of 4-5 pick and rolls with Lebron at PF against Speights at C who is set to switch onto 4's according to the settings but would actually be a disaster against Lebron-- then the proper response is to actually sub him out for Green, just like real life.

This is probably much better than having positional roll defender switching defense be set in the offensive player's defensive settings. While it would be best to have individual matchups by personnel be configurable man for man-- after all, this is how real NBA schemes and game planning works-- this would get you quite a ways in that direction with a mostly understandable interface, and being able to save defensive switch settings per player for a team would make such a system much easier to use game to game.

[Coach2K]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

I just went through the thread again and I don't think anyone brought up transition defense. Basically, it's weak. Let's look at how each relevant defensive POE setting plays out. Important to note: because teammate defensive transition performance is so bad, from what I can tell, all of what I write below is true whether your opponent is playing to Run in Transition, Some Crash, Some Get Back, or to Crash Offensive Boards: Crash Offensive Boards: You should have a transition disadvantage for this, and you do. However, if you have a very strong offensive rebounding team versus your opponent, this setting doesn't really help you take full advantage of that, as it should. Hit to transition defense is greater than the benefit to offensive rebounding, so effectively, this becomes a less useful setting. This is partly because user offensive rebounding is still weak relative to CPU offensive rebounding. Some Crash, Some Get Back: This is the neutral one, but it too suffers from the disadvantages of crashing offensive boards because your CPU teammates are bad at getting back, or take some kind of speed disadvantage relative to your opponents in getting back. Limit Transition: This is the setting I find myself using the most because otherwise the opponent will build up too much transition momentum and easy baskets in the paint before my team can get back. You can limit this by taking control of your SF or best available player in transition to get under the hoop and into the paint as quickly as possible, because the AI is better at perimeter transition than it is at protecting the paint and the rim. You have to compensate and provide paint transition protection manually, and that helps. But you only really have a chance to do this with this setting. It works in spurts under Some Crash, Some Get Back, but you're always toast with Crashing Offensive Boards. In short, the combination of the game's weaker user controlled performance in offensive rebounding and weak transition defense limits the usefulness of some of the POE's. That limits sim play and limits your options as a sim player for playing more than one style, particularity if you want to run n' gun and still play decent fact game pace defense.

I think whether what you have said is true or not is going to depend a lot on your shot selection.

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by www.Coach2K.com

I think whether what you have said is true or not is going to depend a lot on your shot selection.

Well I don't spam jumpers or threes. I play sim, run plays, mostly get good looks, shoot for high percentages. I agree that if someone chooses bad shots and sets up a lot of long rebounds, things get out of hand. But I'm not talking about that and don't play that way.

I'm talking about default sim sliders on SS. My own slider set adjusts for these things a bit, but at default sim, this is what I see. Maybe others see different.

I'm gearing comments to default sim SS because that's what the devs have said they are targeting as the most sim settings.

[Coach2K]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

Well I don't spam jumpers or threes. I play sim, run plays, mostly get good looks, shoot for high percentages. I agree that if someone chooses bad shots and sets up a lot of long rebounds, things get out of hand. But I'm not talking about that and don't play that way. I'm talking about default sim sliders on SS. My own slider set adjusts for these things a bit, but at default sim, this is what I see. Maybe others see different. I'm gearing comments to default sim SS because that's what the devs have said they are targeting as the most sim settings.

I agree transition d needs work.

Not a personal attack on your play. My personal experience just tells me what you said in the other post definitely can be true but not always.

I'm not sure difficulty matters in this case.

Main problem I see with the POEs is they seem like they are all or nothing which is the point I think you are driving at.

I agree with you in that they are too exaggerated in their effect.


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