Dan Marino, not John Elway, is the Comeback King

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by ehh

Please Nole, those QB's had so much more talent around them than Marino it isn't even funny - on both sides of the ball too. How come Elway didn't win a ring until he had Terrell Davis carrying the load? Kelly had Thurman Thomas and a heckuva defense. Montana, well you don't even have to say how much talent he had around him.

I agree about Jim Kelly. He had a HOF running back, two HOF receivers, and at least a lineman or two that should be getting HOF looks (Kent Hull). The Bills defense was okay, but that secondary was suspect at times, and they tended to open up shoot-outs with teams that shouldn't have been able to force shoot-outs.

But Elway took 3 teams to Super Bowls that were nothing special. We always focus on his 2 wins with those strong Bronco teams in the late 90's, but we can't forget some of those forgettable teams he was getting into Super Bowls with prior.

With Montana, I always point out that he won two Super Bowls without Rice, Taylor, Rathman, or Jones. And one without Craig. During his first Super Bowl, he had Dwight Clark, but Clark wasn't a great player. A really good player at times, but his legacy was hyped up mostly over "The Catch".

Quote: Originally Posted by ehh

The Dolphins had no defense and no running game in Marino's early years and had a defense but no running game or WR's in Marino's twilight. The Dolphins could never put it altogether at the same time, that's not Marino's fault.

He had Duper and Clayton for long enough. Look at the Cardinals last year... that running game sucked, but look how Kurt Warner played with his two receivers. He negated the shortcomings of the running game by playing at such a high level when it mattered. See, Marino didn't do that consistently or when it mattered. The Cards lost, but that wasn't Warner's fault. Marino didn't show up against the 49ers, he looked lost out there, and he didn't show up in a lot of big games... he also retired with a losing playoff record; he let a lot of games slip away with bad decisions.

History shows us that you don't need a dynamic back or a great defense to win a Super Bowl. Peyton won without a great back, and when you compare the Colts rushing stats for that season with some from Marino's years, you'll see that they aren't that different.

[ehh]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

He had Duper and Clayton for long enough. Look at the Cardinals last year... that running game sucked, but look how Kurt Warner played with his two receivers. He negated the shortcomings of the running game by playing at such a high level when it mattered. See, Marino didn't do that consistently or when it mattered. The Cards lost, but that wasn't Warner's fault. Marino didn't show up against the 49ers, he looked lost out there, and he didn't show up in a lot of big games... he also retired with a losing playoff record; he let a lot of games slip away with bad decisions.

I agree to an extent, Clayton and Duper were outstanding WR's but neither was that close to Fitzgerald and Boldin is better than both of them as well. I think as time goes by the Marks Brothers get to be a little bit of a folk tale. Look at their numbers outside of '84 and they are very good WR's, pro-bowlers in some years but basically 60 rec, 1000 yard guys but they weren't uncoverable like Fitz and both were small, neither was a possession guy like Boldin. Hell, Fitz/Boldin may be the best 1-2 WR punch in NFL history.

Marino essentially did the same thing in '84 that the '08 Cards & Warner did, he just never did it again even though he had a few opportunities to. But yeah, Dan did have some bad spots in big moments and his fair share of untimely interceptions.

[CW McGraw]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

They may never make the hall, but again, Duper and Clayton were an excellent combo and he of course had Stevenson long enough to get to a Super Bowl with him, lol. A QB only needs a good receiver and decent protection. Marino had two really good receivers, and pretty good protection. He still didn't make the best of it. There were years where he had numbers as high as Peyton Manning's (just looking at more recent history), with a running game at about the same level by combined totals... he still didn't make the best of it.

What you should have said there where I bolded is "A QB only needs a good receiver and decent protection to put up good numbers." Marino had that early on his career and had easily the greatest three years throwing the football ever. He did his job. A good group of WRs and a decent OL aren't going to win you championships unless you get insanely lucky. If you think that all a good QB plus OL and WRs equals championships then you're just wrong.

Marino lost to the better team in his only SB. The Niners had the greatest secondary ever and a good pass rush. On top of that, the Fins defense gave up 35ish points.

Hell, I'll concede Marino pissed on his leg early on at times. It's just unfortunate that Marino had his best teams when as a player he was most immature. By the time that he improved, the AFC was taken over by the Bills and the Fins were being driven into the ground by Wayne Huizenga and Jimmy Johnson. When Peyton Manning won his SB, his defense carried him through the playoffs. Marino never got that luxury.

Quote: Originally Posted by

Elway is better then Marino, and any Cleveland fan knows why. This man(elway) has been a winner year after year. He is no late 90's only claim to fame. He was a come back king in VERY BIG games as much as anyone. Its because of this his carrear can still be compared to the great Montana for the #1 spot. Elway had many years with a poor team around him and still made it to the superbowl or late playoffs. Again, I see many young people here who dont remember the 80's. And Marino was great as well. But to say he didnt have a good team was crazy. He had Don Shula for a coach, enough said. Don shula was the Bill bellichek of the old days (and even one step better). The mans record speaks for himself and is nearly untouchable. He has taken many "no name" players and turned them into superbowl champs.

First of all, Elway and Marino are about equal, IMO. I'm not going to bother bringing up Elway's stats, because they're, understandably, mediocre. Dan Reeves refused to give Elway a lick of help on offense, but one thing Elway did have for much of his career was a very solid defense. The thing is Marino was given average talent for most of his career outside of the 80s, but maintained solid stats for his entire career. When Marino played all 16 games, he threw under 20 TDs just once; Elway never broke 30 TD once in his entire career.

Marino's good offensive talent in his prime was about equal to Elway's defenses. Neither had a better team really, just different.

Shula just wasn't the coach in the 80s and 90s that he was in the 70s. Shula was past his prime and changed his entire philosophy to suit Marino.

[CW McGraw]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

He had Duper and Clayton for long enough. Look at the Cardinals last year... that running game sucked, but look how Kurt Warner played with his two receivers. He negated the shortcomings of the running game by playing at such a high level when it mattered. See, Marino didn't do that consistently or when it mattered. The Cards lost, but that wasn't Warner's fault. Marino didn't show up against the 49ers, he looked lost out there, and he didn't show up in a lot of big games... he also retired with a losing playoff record; he let a lot of games slip away with bad decisions. History shows us that you don't need a dynamic back or a great defense to win a Super Bowl. Peyton won without a great back, and when you compare the Colts rushing stats for that season with some from Marino's years, you'll see that they aren't that different.

The Cards running game and defense showed up in the playoffs. Edgerrin James was refreshed and rested going into the playoffs and their defense dominated when they needed to. Hell, Jake Delhomme lost the divisional game more than Warner won it. That Cards defense was forcing turnovers and making big plays when they needed to up until the SB.

I'm not saying you need Terrell Davis or Ronnie Lott to win SBs, but the QB isn't the only guy who's supposed to elevate his play come playoff time. Manning played mediocre for much of the playoffs, but his run defense held the best running game in the league to 20 yards. Marino may not have been Bart Starr in the playoffs, but his defense and running game could play just as bad.

[moose1619]

Montana's legacy extends past his niner days. He lead the Chiefs to the AFC championship game with no weapons. I mean J.J. Birden, Kimble Ambers, an old Marcus Allen, Willie Davis. Montana could have won any where in a west coast system. He was that good, he could win with mediocre offensive players around him. Having great players around him made him and his team that much better. I must say Marino never scared me in the final minutes of a game. I never felt like "oh my god" like I did watching Montana or Elway, you just knew they would bring there team back.

[marq]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

Elway didn't play the full game... he got knocked out. Gary Kubiak came in and had enough time to attempt 12 passes. They lost by 3. Had Elway stayed in, it may have been a different story. As for Montana, heck, it's Joe Montana. He was known for coming back from large deficits. So I put nothing above him there. There are lots of games I feel that if he were able to finish they may have been different. We'll never know, but it is based on what he was capable of since he'd done it many times before. They may never make the hall, but again, Duper and Clayton were an excellent combo and he of course had Stevenson long enough to get to a Super Bowl with him, lol. A QB only needs a good receiver and decent protection. Marino had two really good receivers, and pretty good protection. He still didn't make the best of it. There were years where he had numbers as high as Peyton Manning's (just looking at more recent history), with a running game at about the same level by combined totals... he still didn't make the best of it. Marino gets far too many excuses. Sorry to hear that, lol. Debating is what we do here... it's not a matter of winning or losing. It's supposed to be fun. Nothing to get bent out of shape over... I acknowledge that, I'm just saying that the consensus is that he's not the greatest. Yeah it's a matter of opinion, but when comparing to guys like Joe Montana I just think it's absurd. It's Joe Montana... and John Elway took teams to Super Bowls that lacked a lot of offensive talent, with running games no better than what Marino had... that '86 teams running game was trash. I look at the weapons a QB had and what he did with them, that's the only fair measurement there can be. Marino had weapons for long enough and just didn't get it done, and to reiterate the rushing numbers were no worse in many of those years than what Elway had in some years, and what Peyton Manning has been working with for years, including the Super Bowl Championship season. Blaming the running game for Marino's own failures is just another excuse. He may not have had that one great back, but Manning didn't win a Super Bowl with one either.

A few things...1) are you talking about Montana who was 9-23, 125 yards and 1 int in that game before his injury?! And yes, it was actually Kubiak who scored the TD going 11-12. Elway did not produce a scoring drive in that game. Could things have been different? Maybe, but both of those qb's played poorly against the Bills in those games.

Second, I'm not getting bent out of shape at all. I hate that I have to respond to that anyway, but I've been here long enough to see how these things go.

Third, Stephenson played 4 SEASONS with Marino before his career ending injury. If you want to say that "he played with a HOFer" based on 4 out of 18 seasons, you're crazy.

Fourth, as has already been said here, the Marks Brothers were good, not great. If you look at their careers you will see the same. Rarely did either have back-to-back 1,000 yard seasons (Duper did it once) or back-to-back double-digit TD seasons. Neither wr did anything after leaving Miami in 1992: Clayton had a marginal season in GB and Duper retired.

Fifth, Peyton played a majority of his career with Edge. Don't say he had no running game. The year he broke Dan's record, James rushed for over 1,500 yards! And the year he finally did win he STILL had a 1,000 yard rusher and a quality backup rb who both performed extremely well in the SB. Also, he played his full career with a HOF wideout! The D for the Colts carried them to that title, Dan never had help of that nature. Not until the end of his career and by then he was handcuffed and injured.

Let's not get confused here, He did have bad games, make bad decisions, etc., but what qb didn't? Yeah Elway went to 5 SB's, but only had one good game and that was because atlanta keyed on TD. Montana has been blown out is playoff games, it happens. Montana also played on great teams, as did Elway towards the end of his career. Defense certainly helped both QB's have successful teams.

Again, football is the ultimate team sport. these qb's can't do everything. I've seen Marino lead teams to gw fg's only to see the kick missed. I've seen him leave the field with the lead only to lose it on the sideline. I've seen him throw game clinching picks. I've seen him beat the Greatest Team ever, and I also saw him holding on for one more chance at a ring. But throughout it all, he had the best skills of a QB I have ever seen. Ii saw him make marginal players pro bowlers (Ferrell Edmunds, I'm looking at you), play with OJ Mcduffie as his #1 and Orande Gadsen as his #2, play 18 years with only 1 thousand yard rusher, and play with Bernie Parmalee as his #1 HB.

After '84, I personally thought his best chance was the '94 team. He lost a heartbreaking game that year in which his D couldn't stop Natrone Means. He had a great game, but Stoyanovich missed a fg that was well within his range. That is why Football is the ULTIMATE TEAM Game.

[Aggies7]

Quote: Originally Posted by MassNole

I know this is blasphemy to some but Dan Marino is the most overrated QB in the history of the NFL. In my opinion Dan Marino was to the NFL is what Klif Kingsbury was to the Big 12. He put up big numbers but never did anything else that really mattered. Unlike his contemporaries of John Elway, Jim Kelly, and Joe Montana he only got his team to the big game once where he lost. I judge a QB by winning games in the postseason and at least making the Super Bowl. I can forgive Jim Kelly for not having a ring when he gets his team to 4 straight Super Bowls against 4 really good NFC East teams. Dan Marino was in no way on John Elway's level.

Could not agree more. Marino never seemed to bring at "A" game to the important games. I like Marino and obviously like Elway, but to be honest I just dont think Marino was as good as Elway. But the way I look at it they both belong in the HoF and thats where they are so Im happy with that.

[Salhus]

Marino may have been a better passer, but I take Elway's heart over anyones