MVP/CY/ROY Talk

[snepp]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

What is the formula? Seriously

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/

It isn't some hidden secret. If you "seriously" wanted to know, you could have found out at any time.

[55]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

The point I was trying to make was simply this:

Whether you are a proponent of traditional stats, SABR stats, or both... Alfonso Soriano being lauded as a legitimate NL MVP candidate is a pretty absurd notion.

I would wager a fair sum of cash that he doesn't garner a single vote and rightfully so.

[Chrisksaint]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Cabrera wins due to his BRGABWBF which is over 9000

Spoiler

Being Really Good At Baseball While Being Fat

[ImTellinTim]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Cabrera wins due to his BRGABWBF which is over 9000

Spoiler

Being Really Good At Baseball While Being Fat

He's my pick because of his superior MHWMIFB

Spoiler

Money He Won Me In Fantasy Baseball

[Mo]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

The point I was trying to make was simply this:

Whether you are a proponent of traditional stats, SABR stats, or both... Alfonso Soriano being lauded as a legitimate NL MVP candidate is a pretty absurd notion.

I would wager a fair sum of cash that he doesn't garner a single vote and rightfully so.

32 HR, (5-6? Less than Braun), 108 RBI, (3-4 less than Braun, both more than Posey and McCutchen) doing this with guys like Joe Mather and Bryan LaHair hitting in front of him, and on one good leg all season.

I was being facetious with my original post about soriano,(i thought I made it pretty obvious for everyone to see) but to then come in, and immediately come in with your WAR, (A team stat, Wins is a team stat, to debunk a guy from an individual, not a team award) is disrespectful to the game and players.

As you previous posts notes, you didnt watch Soriano or the Cubs, and to dismiss him like a bag of trash just by looking at your computer screen, is why many baseball fans get annoyed with the SABR community.



knibb high football rules!

[lonewolf371]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

It's funny that I suggest stats (plural, not singular) like OPS, and then get treated as if I think that's the only thing that should be used when determining a player's worth. The SABR-wars are hilarious.

My problem with WAR as a be all, end all stat is this: What is the formula? Seriously, I want to know what formula is used to come up with WAR. It would be the first time I've ever seen it. I'm not saying we should dismiss it; it's a tool to come up with classes of players. However, to use it as a defining stat or to suggest it shows the exact number of wins a player has over a replacement player without controlling the "replacement" is short-sighted.

What's interesting is that no respectable SABR person will tell you that a higher WAR definitively means that a player is better than others. It's just a summation of different statistics where you assume a certain value for every type of play. It's just a metric.

What we should all interpret from stats is this: Cabrera has more power, but Trout has a lot of power as well. They get on base equally well. Trout is a far better defender and base runner. The assumptions of WAR on the value of power/on-base/base running/defense say that Trout means more to his team.

[seanjeezy]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

I do see that Trout's team has 2 more wins than Cabrera's. So it's Trout's fault his team was in a far better division? Fair enough.

And this sums it all up right here... Angels play in arguably the best division in the AL (the best in MLB if you go by run differential) while the Tigers play in the worst, and the Angels still have a better record than the Tigers. With Trout the Angels are 83-58 (.589) while the Tigers are 87-74 (.540). Without Trout the Angels were 6-14 (.300). Not saying the Angels would've finished with a .300 winning percentage without Trout, but they certainly wouldn't have had a shot at a 90 win season.


Lonewolf sums up sabermetrics perfectly: a compilation of various stats in order to quantify value. What it all boils down to though is runs (hey look, a traditional stat!), and not only does Trout have more defensive runs saved, but he has a higher wRC+ too. Cabrera's one argument over Trout is his offensive output, and Trout has him beat on that too. Add in his defensive value and baserunning value and Trout becomes the clear cut MVP.

[Bellsprout]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Pre-cursor: I don't really care who wins the AL MVP, I'd probably vote for Cabrera, I just found this stat interesting.

Cabrera would not have had the highest batting average in 38 of last 41 seasons, HR in 13 of last 17 , or RBI in 11 of last 16. #triplecrown

[rdnk]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

And this sums it all up right here... Angels play in arguably the best division in the AL (the best in MLB if you go by run differential) while the Tigers play in the worst, and the Angels still have a better record than the Tigers. With Trout the Angels are 83-58 (.589) while the Tigers are 87-74 (.540). Without Trout the Angels were 6-14 (.300). Not saying the Angels would've finished with a .300 winning percentage without Trout, but they certainly wouldn't have had a shot at a 90 win season.

Neither would the Tigers w/o Cabrera. Why should Detroit be punished for being in a crap division? They took care of business.

I'm not saying that Trout shouldn't win the MVP. However, that argument you are using is crap. If the Angels were in the central instead of the ChiSox, who knows how it would have played out. Or if the Tigers were in the west instead of Oakland? You cannot base a MVP argument off of that. Bottom line, the Tigers did what they needed to do to win their division, the Angels did not.

[Jgainsey]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Bottom line, using team record and playoff standing is completely irrelevant when it comes to an MVP discussion.

IMO, it's embarrassing that so many writers still get behind that kind of false narrative.

[snepp]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Bottom line, using team record and playoff standing is completely irrelevant when it comes to an MVP discussion.

IMO, it's embarrassing that so many writers still get behind that kind of false narrative.

I don't mind it if it's being used when comparing two equally deserving players.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Today I read on Twitter that Mike Trout is a jack of all trades, but a master of none. He can do a lot of things good, but nothing great.

Lol

[Sportsforever]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Today I read on Twitter that Mike Trout is a jack of all trades, but a master of none. He can do a lot of things good, but nothing great.

Lol

If that's the case, then Cabby is jack of nothing. They are pretty comparable offensively and then Trout blows him away...pretty funny.

[seanjeezy]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Neither would the Tigers w/o Cabrera. Why should Detroit be punished for being in a crap division? They took care of business.

I'm not saying that Trout shouldn't win the MVP. However, that argument you are using is crap. If the Angels were in the central instead of the ChiSox, who knows how it would have played out. Or if the Tigers were in the west instead of Oakland? You cannot base a MVP argument off of that. Bottom line, the Tigers did what they needed to do to win their division, the Angels did not.

Thanks for ignoring the second part of my post where I explain that Trout was not only better than Cabrera defensively but offensively as well...

There were posters earlier in this thread that were trying to discredit Trout because his team did not make the playoffs. The first part of my post is a response to those statements, but overall the point I was trying to make is that at the end of the day, baseball is all about runs (I think you win if you score more runs than your opponent, but I'm not really sure ) and it is an undeniable fact that Mike Trout has saved waaaaaaaaaaaay more runs than Cabrera on defense, in addition to creating more run scoring opportunities on offense as well.

Honestly your argument would make more sense if the two teams' records were reversed. I would think that teams in a harder division would have a tougher time winning games would they not? Why does every team from the AL West have a winning record against the AL Central this year while 4 out of the 5 Central teams have piss poor records against the West? Heck, why were the Tigers only 13-20 against the West while the Angels were 25-20 against the Central. This "the Tigers did what they needed to do to win the division" argument is utter crap because they hardly had to do anything.

Trust me, it hurts me to admit this since I despise the Angels (and Mike Trout in particular) more than any other team in professional sports and Miggy has been one of my favorite players since his days on the Marlins (back when he was skinny), but Trout is having a season for the ages. I honestly think he would've had a shot at 12 WAR if he plays the first month.

Bottom line, using team record and playoff standing is completely irrelevant when it comes to an MVP discussion.

IMO, it's embarrassing that so many writers still get behind that kind of false narrative.

I agree and disagree with you to a point. Once again it all comes down to how we want to quantify value - Is it wins? runs scored? WAR (which is runs converted into wins)? Ultimately the goal is to win baseball games so why shouldn't record carry a little weight? If the two frontrunners had identical seasons but team A was 50-112 and team B was 90-72, who would you pick?

[SPTO]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

I'm sorry but Cabrera did something that's once in a generation and I doubt we'll see anyone doing it again any time soon. Even if he didn't win the Triple Crown i'd still give him the MVP.

Trout will have some MVP trophies on his mantlepiece at some point if he keeps up his production.