The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

[G3no_11]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I understand, just disagree with you.

I don't feel PED's gives as great of an advantage.

I feel like steroids do in a sense of how frequent and how hard you can train while using them. They also give an enhancement to focus as well. Put all that together and you are going to have not only a much stronger player (hitting, pitching, throwing), but you are also going to increase a players speed and focus.

Obviously drugs effect everyone differently though so that isn't always the case.

[roadman]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I feel like steroids do in a sense of how frequent and how hard you can train while using them. They also give an enhancement to focus as well. Put all that together and you are going to have not only a much stronger player (hitting, pitching, throwing), but you are also going to increase a players speed and focus.

Obviously drugs effect everyone differently though so that isn't always the case.

Yeah, I know some people agree with this, but there is a lot of documentation out there that using PED's doesn't put extra yardage on the ball.

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

I guess it's all in a matter of what and who you believe.

[Blzer]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I want NZT (from Limitless) to be legal in baseball. That is all.

[wwharton]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

So because it was ignored in the past means they should do nothing moving forward? I never understand the line of logic that if someone gets caught and they lie and lie and lie about it they are somehow not responsible for their own actions. Like you see certain people blaming Selig and MLB for this. How does that work?

Also, I dont understand the line about it being just about the money. If anything these suspensions are causing people to stay away or ignore baseball. Hell, if anything you could argue Selig is costing his league money by doing this. If they wanted to make the most money possible they would sweep this under the rug, declare players are clean and end it right there. All this does is paint a black eye on MLB which is nothing about money.

Already been touched on a bit but the problem with Selig is that Steroids were basically legal under his watch. When Canseco caused congress to get involved, Selig decided he was offended that players would even consider using and was behind going back in time and doing a witch hunt on players for using during a time frame they were allowed to use freely under his watch. No matter how you feel on the topic, Selig should be included in whatever indifference or anger you may have for players that use.

Corked bats, stealing signs, etc. bend/break the rules of the game. We've all done something like that to some sort of extent when playing games.

PED use is against federal law. To compare the 2 is IMO ridiculous.

Edit - Let me clean this up a bit, since PED use is against federal law is an ignorant statement. The illegal use of substances besides its intended purpose under prescription is against the law. Steroids for example.

The legality is one argument that carries at least a little weight, but that brings me back to my original post (where I used the comparison of murdering a baby or stealing from a blind man). People aren't up in arms bc these players broke the law. I don't remember anyone getting so upset about a player nailed for smoking weed or even something harder like cocaine. Hell, Hamilton is a feel good story where most want him too succeed. People are complaining about what they consider "cheating the game" and that's just a crock.

Anything that is illegal was made that way bc of potential health risks, not some unfair advantage in a sport. And as roadman mentioned, there are/have been illegal substances still used but acceptable by society. Hell, I also mentioned before there were things that were legal that have since become illegal, and usually bc some high school kid used it improperly and died. The point is, it never has anything to do with records or an unfair competitive advantage. There plenty of "performance enhancing drugs" or "substances" that the MLB is completely fine with players taking... and more importantly, that the general public is completely fine with athletes taking. I once again point to Schilling's bloody sock.

So that leaves us with this area of what is SO helpful that players jerseys should be burned for taking it vs what's completely fine... and who is qualified to make this list of things that fall where they do? Where are greenies on that list? What about caffeine? Hydroxicut? Not just drugs... what about the contacts that give you better than 20/20?

Let's sum it all up and say it's all part of the game and always has been... and always will be.

[C the Lyte]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

The legality is one argument that carries at least a little weight, but that brings me back to my original post (where I used the comparison of murdering a baby or stealing from a blind man). People aren't up in arms bc these players broke the law. I don't remember anyone getting so upset about a player nailed for smoking weed or even something harder like cocaine. Hell, Hamilton is a feel good story where most want him too succeed. People are complaining about what they consider "cheating the game" and that's just a crock.

I see what you are saying here.

Anything that is illegal was made that way bc of potential health risks, not some unfair advantage in a sport. And as roadman mentioned, there are/have been illegal substances still used but acceptable by society. Hell, I also mentioned before there were things that were legal that have since become illegal, and usually bc some high school kid used it improperly and died. The point is, it never has anything to do with records or an unfair competitive advantage. There plenty of "performance enhancing drugs" or "substances" that the MLB is completely fine with players taking... and more importantly, that the general public is completely fine with athletes taking. I once again point to Schilling's bloody sock.

So that leaves us with this area of what is SO helpful that players jerseys should be burned for taking it vs what's completely fine... and who is qualified to make this list of things that fall where they do? Where are greenies on that list? What about caffeine? Hydroxicut? Not just drugs... what about the contacts that give you better than 20/20?

Let's sum it all up and say it's all part of the game and always has been... and always will be.

I have a problem with that statement. So you are ok with these guys juicing? Are we to just throw our hands up, turn a blind eye, and celebrate the best cheater?

As for the bloody sock? He numbed the pain. He was still pitching within his own natural abilities (I'm assuming he's clean). To classify this as performance enhancing is a bit of a stretch IMO.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how caffeine or contacts improve your speed, strength, and overall athleticism. Improving your concentration and focus is one thing, still being a relevant power hitter @ 39 or being able to still have home run power on broken bats are another.

[roadman]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I have a problem with that statement. So you are ok with these guys juicing? Are we to just throw our hands up, turn a blind eye, and celebrate the best cheater?

As for the bloody sock? He numbed the pain. He was still pitching within his own natural abilities (I'm assuming he's clean). To classify this as performance enhancing is a bit of a stretch IMO.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how caffeine or contacts improve your speed, strength, and overall athleticism. Improving your concentration and focus is one thing, still being a relevant power hitter @ 39 or being able to still have home run power on broken bats are another.

Here's what I know. My father-in-law said Mantle used amphetamines when he played. Was anyone bothered back then with Mantle using amphetamines or after he finished playing?

The book Ball Four, by Jim Bouton, really brought out how readily ballplayers took "greenies"

Do I think anything less of Mantle as a player today? Heck, no, he's a legend.

My father-in-law is really pertubed about all the PED's talk. I could tell him they are illegal and banned substances and he really doesn't care. He equates it to someone increasing their strength by weight lifting.

[wwharton]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I see what you are saying here.



I have a problem with that statement. So you are ok with these guys juicing? Are we to just throw our hands up, turn a blind eye, and celebrate the best cheater?

As for the bloody sock? He numbed the pain. He was still pitching within his own natural abilities (I'm assuming he's clean). To classify this as performance enhancing is a bit of a stretch IMO.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how caffeine or contacts improve your speed, strength, and overall athleticism. Improving your concentration and focus is one thing, still being a relevant power hitter @ 39 or being able to still have home run power on broken bats are another.

We already celebrate cheaters... cheating is a part of sports. We've just drawn a line of what is acceptable "cheating" and what isn't. But no, I think certain drugs should be illegal and if caught using players should be punished... but that's it. Just like any other form of cheating, punish them, move on, then let them get back to their job. This is how it's been since the beginning of time. Maybe Babe never did one illegal thing his entire career, or maybe he scuffed a ball here or there when pitching, or stole a sign or two. We don't care. Yes, I'm using examples on the extreme of the other end on purpose but the point is who determines where the line is drawn between "ah that's okay" and "this guy shouldn't even be allowed to look at a HOF ballot"?

As for pain numbing, contacts, etc. that's where I really disagree. These things enhance performance, there's no way to avoid that. If the pain isn't numbed his performance would most definitely be effected negatively. His natural ability without the pain numbed would've been MUCH worse than what we saw. In many ways roids just allows you to recover quicker which makes it possible to work out more/longer. Things that are acceptable to take allow you to maintain a certain level of energy on the field longer... why is that the huge difference many want to make it out to be? And MOST importantly, there are plenty of substances and "drugs" that are allowed to help with recovery while lifting, speed recovery from injury, dull/numb pain, etc. These are all PEDs to the definition. As I mentioned, the ones we complain about are the illegal ones... and they're all illegal bc of health risks, not because they're unfairly effective. So police them, yes... but no I won't consider anyone who was caught as being tainted in terms of their contributions to the game.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Gaylord Perry is in the hall of fame. One of the biggest cheaters in baseball. But I guess the outlawed spitball, doesn't compare to steroids. Go figure.

[slickdtc]

You make it hard to argue that point, wwharton. Go back to the NFL forum with your wisdom and knowledge.

A part of me doesn't care about the PED use, the greenies, etc. Its not going to hit HR's for you. It's their body, as far as the adverse effects go.

It's just knowing there are kids out there who just love the game, and want to play it for a living. It's not fair that they will have to take these things to keep up. If you have X amount of guys with talent/dedication in place, the ones who are willing to put their health on the line by taking these substances are likely going to win out and force those who are "pure." I know it's naive to think the game will ever be fully clean, but I don't want it the other way around.

It's always going to be a cat and mouse game.

[G3no_11]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

It's just knowing there are kids out there who just love the game, and want to play it for a living. It's not fair that they will have to take these things to keep up. If you have X amount of guys with talent/dedication in place, the ones who are willing to put their health on the line by taking these substances are likely going to win out and force those who are "pure." I know it's naive to think the game will ever be fully clean, but I don't want it the other way around.

This is exactly how I feel about this. Not only does it put pressure for everyone to do in order to keep up.. it is damaging to your health. Much more damaging than Adderall, a cortizone shot, or eye contacts. Those are just basic medical treatments.

[ubernoob]

I'm glad Braun got suspended as it's what the rules are.

I'm in the camp if players in the NFL / MLB / NBA want to take PEDs and risk their long term health for my enjoyment and boatloads of cash, go for it. I couldn't care less. Bonds, Sosa and Big Mac lit the sports world on fire with their chases.

If someone told me they'd give me hundreds of millions of dollars for taking 10 years off my life I'd be fine with it. That being said - rules are rules. Anyone taking them should be punished accordingly.

[24]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

My deleted post before was exactly about this. At the end of the day is it really a bad thing? You honestly have to ask yourselves this question. If someone said take Pill Y and Injection Z and you will be able to earn more money and do your job better I can guarantee that the majority of the people here would do it.

And It's not like Steroids, and Greenies are "Miracle Drugs" If you don't put in the time effort and work into your game then your not going to get that much better. For Every Mark Mcgwire their is David Segui, Jason Grimsley, Larry Bigbie and a boatload of other players who are terrible but have taken PED's.

Not To mention all the members of the Hall Of Fame that used various drugs. Mantle, Schmidt and Koufax come to mind immediately. We Don't crucify them in any way and why should we? They all put up incredible Hall of Fame numbers. You can't just choose to vilify the players today but be alright with the Legends that did it years ago.

You can call them cheaters all you want but don't say for a second you wouldn't want a Bat like (an In his Prime) Alex Rodriguez in your Lineup or a Pitcher Like Roger Clemens heading your teams rotation.

[speels]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

I agree with the above statement. I am pretty sure I could take millions of steroids and still not be able to hit a 95mph fastball any better than I do now.

[wwharton]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

You make it hard to argue that point, wwharton. Go back to the NFL forum with your wisdom and knowledge.

A part of me doesn't care about the PED use, the greenies, etc. Its not going to hit HR's for you. It's their body, as far as the adverse effects go.

It's just knowing there are kids out there who just love the game, and want to play it for a living. It's not fair that they will have to take these things to keep up. If you have X amount of guys with talent/dedication in place, the ones who are willing to put their health on the line by taking these substances are likely going to win out and force those who are "pure." I know it's naive to think the game will ever be fully clean, but I don't want it the other way around.

It's always going to be a cat and mouse game.

Ha ha! I hear what you're saying though, and I agree... and I think that's C the Lyte's problem too (correct me if I'm wrong).

But lets look at the sport of boxing. By nature you're putting your life at risk... and at best your way of life. If boxing or MMA is too extreme, we can just look at football. You're almost willingly signing up for brain damage or having trouble walking later in life. Individuals choose whether or not it's for them or not. Baseball is actually unique in that you don't have to be a HR hitter or power pitcher to not only be successful enough to have a solid professional career but even be a HOFer. So unlike the other sports I mentioned, even if it becomes necessary to take PEDs to put up 30 hrs (it's not like that btw) a year, you don't have to put up 30 hrs a year to be successful. I don't think Jose Reyes is juicing. I doubt Greg Maddox was either. It's just like everything else with the "athletes aren't role models" speech. Teach kids to do right, don't make rules/laws that say society needs to decide how to put them on the straight and narrow.

Final point on the kids discussion, hydroxicut is a perfect example of what athletes take LEGALLY. Most supplements and other things like that require drinking a lot of water, if not a very strict diet and training program. Kids get their hands on these things and use them improperly, end up dead and then whatever they took gets banned. This happens A LOT. It's not the fault of the drug, it's the ease of misuse that makes it illegal. So these grown men with personal trainers who have been using things properly for years now have to stop for this reason. If they decide not to stop and get caught they are in the same group of players using illegal substances and labeled as cheaters. It doesn't make sense... there are still tons of products on the same level that are legal bc no kid has died taking it yet, and the players that were smart enough to switch to something on the same level aren't being hammered for enhancing their performance. We can't possibly regulate drug use like this in sports. I'm all for banning these substances to protect the kids. All I'm against is punishing the professionals beyond what the rules state when we know the rules are ONLY in place to protect the kids, not to protect the record books.

This is exactly how I feel about this. Not only does it put pressure for everyone to do in order to keep up.. it is damaging to your health. Much more damaging than Adderall, a cortizone shot, or eye contacts. Those are just basic medical treatments.

Touched on a bunch of that in the reply above. I could care less how these men damage their health. Other sports, by nature, are damaging to your health. I will say if that's your only beef I'm fine with that. But saying Bonds record shouldn't count, Arod/Braun should be kicked out of the league and anything else along those lines I completely disagree with.

[G3no_11]

Re: The Biogenesis/Suspension thread

Touched on a bunch of that in the reply above. I could care less how these men damage their health. Other sports, by nature, are damaging to your health. I will say if that's your only beef I'm fine with that. But saying Bonds record shouldn't count, Arod/Braun should be kicked out of the league and anything else along those lines I completely disagree with.

It's mostly the fact that it is an unnatural advantage, illegal, and a health risk that isn't necessary at all. The other sports, like you said, are dangerous by nature... 2 different things in my opinion.

One example that comes to mind is the Tour De France. That sport was/is probably the dirtiest sport and I think the general consensus from the riders was that it was basically impossible to win without taking some form of illegal PED. I would just hate for baseball to turn into a sport like that.