Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

[ataman5]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I forgot to add the VERY UNNECESSARY HELP coming from the corners to the top man when there is already a defender defending there on the set team defense, no nothing needed yet; he runs for his life to the top and leaving corner not for a wide open 3 but a green 100% shot.

We don't have any helps down the rim or for cutter we somehow have that very unnecessary help coming to the waay top to leave corner all alone.

[xCoachDx]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I forgot to add the VERY UNNECESSARY HELP coming from the corners to the top man when there is already a defender defending there on the set team defense, no nothing needed yet; he runs for his life to the top and leaving corner not for a wide open 3 but a green 100% shot.

We don't have any helps down the rim or for cutter we somehow have that very unnecessary help coming to the waay top to leave corner all alone.

The people at 2K need to bring in some basketball minded people to talk them through some X’s and O’s. Help comes from the wrong place, the rotations are bad, double teams are bad, there just needs a lot of work.

I don’t see that happening tho.

[jfsolo]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

The people at 2K need to bring in some basketball minded people to talk them through some X’s and O’s. Help comes from the wrong place, the rotations are bad, double teams are bad, there just needs a lot of work.

I don’t see that happening tho.

They don't need any outside help, they know what to do, but when the whole game is tuned around online play and trying to limit the ability of the offense to get wide open looks for green makes then there are going to be numerous aspects of the game that are designed and implemented in a way that ignores fundamental basketball principles.

[xCoachDx]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

They don't need any outside help, they know what to do, but when the whole game is tuned around online play and trying to limit the ability of the offense to get wide open looks for green makes then there are going to be numerous aspects of the game that are designed and implemented in a way that ignores fundamental basketball principles.

If they knew what to do, and the point was to limit outside greens, why would they have help defense implemented incorrectly and in a way that allows for more open threes?

[xCoachDx]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

He’s actually stating the opposite lol. The game is “tuned” mostly to cater to the online community.

When e-league’s collectively cry about realistic defence, those are the results once 2K caves.

Personally, I don’t think 2K will make any major impactful and apparent changes (to AI/mechanics especially) until we’ve moved onto next-gen and they need something new to promote. The motion engine they currently use sucks compared to one they mastered pre-2K18.

That’s my point tho. My initial comment was about poor rotations and help coming from the wrong places. Which often leaves the ball side corner three wide open. If the game was catered to the online community, why would this be a thing? Especially considering it’s been an issue for literally a decade now.

I don’t see them making any large scale adjustments to AI anytime soon. They are in the same boat as Madden. They know no matter what they do or don’t do, their sales are going to be relatively the same. No sense in taking a big risk like doing a massive overhaul.

[AIRJ23]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

It doesn’t matter HOW good defense is at launch in 2K23. THEY RAN THEIR ENTIRE MARKETING CAMPAIGN FOR 2K22 ON IMPROVING DEFENSE! And they succeeded! The game was worshipped by offline gamers, calling it the best ever, the best since 2K11/2K16 etc. etc.

It won’t get better than that. Then they nerfed it after they PROMISED they wouldn’t change the defense. So no matter how 2K23 launches, the defense will return back to where it is.

At LEAST with boosted sliders and tweaks to player speed (boosting off ball speed and nerfing on ball speed etc.) 2K22 can have tough and competitive defense (similar to standard settings when the game launched) unlike 2K21 who’s defense was so horrific no slider changes did anything.

The only way 2K23 *actually* improves defense if if they separate online and offline settings.

Otherwise 12 year olds who think basketball is supposed to be 125 lightly contested to wide open threes chucked up after a curry slide every game is “basketball” will ensure no real improvements get made.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

It doesn’t matter HOW good defense is at launch in 2K23. THEY RAN THEIR ENTIRE MARKETING CAMPAIGN FOR 2K22 ON IMPROVING DEFENSE! And they succeeded! The game was worshipped by offline gamers, calling it the best ever, the best since 2K11/2K16 etc. etc.

This is not true. The defence at launch was never the best ever. Defenders simply warped around screens to hide their issues. The tuning did hurt some things but the game engine for next gen has been greatly flawed from day 1 and that includes both pre-patch and post-patch imo.

If you go back and read early impressions people were cautiously optimistic but some key gamers were already pointing out the unrealistic band aid fixes that got worse.

[jfsolo]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

This is not true. The defence at launch was never the best ever. Defenders simply warped around screens to hide their issues. The tuning did hurt some things but the game engine for next gen has been greatly flawed from day 1 and that includes both pre-patch and post-patch imo.

If you go back and read early impressions people were cautiously optimistic but some key gamers were already pointing out the unrealistic band aid fixes that got worse.

Yep to this, it's strange to me that so many people here who are usually really discerning with their analysis of the mechanics of the game have this opinion about the defense being great on release. I guess it's a relativistic argument based off of balance instead of realism plus the worsening because of tuning.

Tuning making things much worse has caused some revisionist history IMO where folks somehow now think that it was great at launch.

[Baebae32]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

This is not true. The defence at launch was never the best ever. Defenders simply warped around screens to hide their issues. The tuning did hurt some things but the game engine for next gen has been greatly flawed from day 1 and that includes both pre-patch and post-patch imo.

If you go back and read early impressions people were cautiously optimistic but some key gamers were already pointing out the unrealistic band aid fixes that got worse.

Just posted similar thoughts in another thread about how the jump to next gen has significantly altered defense in this game. I think the new offensive player movement engine as well. Players are able to run in a rounded arch (think tracing the three point line) faster than you would think a person would be able to do so while dribbling a basketball in real life. This is then compounded with the fact that the AI has zero ability to utilize angles to contain people off the dribble and you end up at the point where the game is a layup line fest (with little resistance at the rim thanks to the spotty help defense) or the game has to compensate and give onball defenders the ability to phase through screens.

If you go back to 2k19 and test the rounded motion glitch it seems that they were aware of this back then and actually put a mechanism in play that slowed the ball handler down to simulate a person having to plant their foot perform this motion in real life

[ataman5]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

What's to come, GREAT Help D on NBA 2K23.. with bold terms in the blog to be released...



3MAN No Paint Defense, they get together to hang there for a while for Lavine to show his skills easier.

[xCoachDx]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Yep to this, it's strange to me that so many people here who are usually really discerning with their analysis of the mechanics of the game have this opinion about the defense being great on release. I guess it's a relativistic argument based off of balance instead of realism plus the worsening because of tuning.

Tuning making things much worse has caused some revisionist history IMO where folks somehow now think that it was great at launch.

I never understood why there was so much praise about help defense when any “help” was literally coming from the same side of the floor…

That’s not really help. That’s borderline suicide at times.

[AIRJ23]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

What's to come, GREAT Help D on NBA 2K23.. with bold terms in the blog to be released...



3MAN No Paint Defense, they get together to hang there for a while for Lavine to show his skills easier.

Lol is that really 2K23? Looks way dumber than 22 AI.

[VictorMG]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I never understood why there was so much praise about help defense when any “help” was literally coming from the same side of the floor…

That’s not really help. That’s borderline suicide at times.

It's weird because when you go to the advanced defensive game plan settings, there are options for defenders to dig, so you'd think they might be able to make it so that the AI does more digging/stunting on the strong side and brings full-fledged help from the weak side.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Ball side defender is programmed to dig and swipe at the ball a lot of times, which gets them stuck and vulnerable for their man to loop around and be open for a 3. They’ll even swipe when you’re nowhere near them anymore. They aren’t actually full on helping for the most part.

I remember Help side D used to fly into the paint as soon as you got a toe past the defense in earlier 2K’s, now they take too long to react. Gotta find a middle ground there. I like where the offensive speed is, so I don’t want any handicaps there. I don’t want the game to feel formulaic on offense.

[xCoachDx]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

It's weird because when you go to the advanced defensive game plan settings, there are options for defenders to dig, so you'd think they might be able to make it so that the AI does more digging/stunting on the strong side and brings full-fledged help from the weak side.

There just needs to be options for this. That’s the issue.

To me, for simplistic purposes, gap/leave him should allow the defender to step in on the ball side. Moderate/tight/deny should not. Although I’d love a simple help/no help option.

Help should come from the weakside tho. Period. Idk how we’ve gone this long without it being that way. Having some logic like that would allow for some weakside post trapping also, which would make things much easier.