CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

....I can let the bugs go this year for the simple fact that if you look at all they are doing.

.... If they are trying to make progress like that I can "forgive" some of the things that slip through the cracks.

.....Now if they had just rehashed last years titles, basically pulled an EA, then I'd be up in arms. .. Come on, all they're doing is putting out the same game as last year and changing a few variables to fool people into thinking they actually did something..

ESPN 2K6 titles really should just clean up bugs, rework presentation graphics to what is current on ESPN Tv , of course do the rosters, and maybe add just a few features. But they should just tighten their game up from this year.

Hmm, interesting. I see that you apply a WAY more laxed standard on VCs game? Ah yes, you are another VC Apologist- OP Sports seems to have its fair share of them. (Like the ones that INSIST they have seen QB spy work once or twice on NFL 2K5).

But lets debate, point by point.
You can let the bugs go? Wow.. that says a ton. Why not just wear a Sega Fanboy shirt and under-roos and be done with it?

You can forgive them if they are "trying to make progress?" Would progress somehow not include fixing the bugs and doing some quality control? Many on this board, after reading that, must be damn glad you aren't a game developer. Again, your fanboy colors are showing. Funny how TIMEOUT bugs slip through the cracks, just like gimme routes, post-instant replay challenge possession issues, penalty/stat bugs, clipping bugs, spy issues, double team issues, and stoppage of playclock issues seem to slip through cracks.

And then you say "2K6 titles should just clean up the bugs...and tighten things up". But wait? I'm confused. Why didn't the 2K5 titles clean up 2K4's bugs and "tighten things up." READ YOUR OWN WORDS...

...So you are suggesting they should pull an EA-like conservative upgrade from 2K5 to 2K6 (while admitting 2K5 had bugs from 2K4 that need cleaned up in 2K6)

...Hmmm, so you dislike EA, but want VC to act just like them? Is that what we are to take from that?

Oh, I'm sorry- I FORGOT! there's the standard by which you judge EA games, versus the laxed standard by which you judge VC's? Forgive me for the oversight.

Ah, then there's the re-hashed engine issue. Hmmm, let me see, some of the SAME stat bugs in ESPN NFL 2K4 show up again in NFL 2K5 (progress? New engine? I think not.) The clipping bug was there in NFL 2K4, and it strangely makes its appearance in 2K5. New engine? Funny how the old engine's problems carry-over ...

..with the same bugs.

No sir. Same engine. Enhanced graphics/textures.
Stop me if any of this sounds like EA's philosophy to you....

A "Ship opening its sails to go all out" eh? Guess they are too cool to take time to fix old bugs from two years prior before opening those sails, bro. (To say nothing of the new problems.)

Whatever, you can sit there and be the fanboy you will. Even industry insiders are starting to acknowledge that VC, despite making a very good looking, graphically appealing product, has far too many bugs in their products for their own good. And this after RELEASING EARLY for NBA and NFL 2K5?

If VC's games were PC games, they'd require more patching than Sonny Corleone did before his funeral service. Unfortunately, that kind of patching is rarely done on consoles. Especially on PS2.

Hold BOTH companies to the same standard of quality on their games. This "underdog" worship no-matter-what that some of you practice is pathetic.

Try to be objective and take off the $20 blinders. Most of us would GLADLY pay $50 for VC's games IF they had less bugs. As it stands, its a darn good thing they are a mere $20 bones.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

Hold BOTH companies to the same standard of quality on their games. This "underdog" worship no-matter-what that some of you practice is pathetic.

Try to be objective and take off the $20 blinders. Most of us would GLADLY pay $50 for VC's games IF they had less bugs. As it stands, its a darn good thing they are a mere $20 bones.

I don't get why it's "pathetic". VC is trying to compete with a company many times larger than it is, with many obstacles in it's path. For most, buying an EA product at any price is a no-brainer. You had people talking about making thoughtful choices on the VC games at TWENTY DOLLARS - LESS THAN half the price. "I'll buy Madden, but I don't know that NFL2k5 is worth $20...". Your statement about most people being willing to gladly pay $50 for the VC games with less bugs is a falsehood. Most people aren't going to pay $50 for two games of the same sport. If you have two very good games at $50 each, what's the sense in owning both when you'll more than likely be happy with one?

Given how bad NBA2k4 was, there was no way most people were going to take a $50 flier on whether it was good or not. Live was a series on the rise, because it was good last year, yet bad the previous 4 years. NBA2K was apparently good in 2k2, okay in 2k3, and took a serious downturn in 2k4. People had it buried.

The fact is, Take Two/VC's strategy for releasing the games early, with a $20 price tag, AND being good games was a necessity. I think when the sales figures for Sept. are released on Monday, you're going to see strong sales for NFL2k5 - the fact is, most gamers aren't as ridiculously anal as some that patrol the boards are. I do agree w/you somewhat about the games being held to the same standard. But within that standard, there should be some understanding given to the situation. From what I can see, VC took the most risks this year in attempting to innovate w/their games. They've shown us where sports games are heading. Yes, they have flaws. They could've easily done the easy thing; did the conservative upgrade - and probably been faulted for that (I can see a quietcool review reading "the game is too much like last year's game; they needed to make a more bold statement").

Some of you guys that come off as unforgiving perfectionists are a trip. We have two choices for sports games now - two. I was actually looking forward to Gameday this year; I thought 989 had turned the corner and was going to start making noise. Then they realized it was too much of an uphill battle, and dropped their line of games for this year. Instead of being so critical of every little thing, I'd rather appreciate that there's a company out there that didn't decide to pull back so that we at least have choices. Are you really telling me that you expect a smaller company to take longer developing a game for the sake of trying to get it as near perfect as possible, and STILL be able to compete? I'm not saying the problems in the games shouldn't be fixed, because they should. But some of you guys blow these issues WAY out of proportion.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

Hold BOTH companies to the same standard of quality on their games. This "underdog" worship no-matter-what that some of you practice is pathetic.

Try to be objective and take off the $20 blinders. Most of us would GLADLY pay $50 for VC's games IF they had less bugs. As it stands, its a darn good thing they are a mere $20 bones.

I don't get why it's "pathetic". VC is trying to compete with a company many times larger than it is, with many obstacles in it's path. For most, buying an EA product at any price is a no-brainer. You had people talking about making thoughtful choices on the VC games at TWENTY DOLLARS - LESS THAN half the price. "I'll buy Madden, but I don't know that NFL2k5 is worth $20...". Your statement about most people being willing to gladly pay $50 for the VC games with less bugs is a falsehood. Most people aren't going to pay $50 for two games of the same sport. If you have two very good games at $50 each, what's the sense in owning both when you'll more than likely be happy with one?

Given how bad NBA2k4 was, there was no way most people were going to take a $50 flier on whether it was good or not. Live was a series on the rise, because it was good last year, yet bad the previous 4 years. NBA2K was apparently good in 2k2, okay in 2k3, and took a serious downturn in 2k4. People had it buried.

The fact is, Take Two/VC's strategy for releasing the games early, with a $20 price tag, AND being good games was a necessity. I think when the sales figures for Sept. are released on Monday, you're going to see strong sales for NFL2k5 - the fact is, most gamers aren't as ridiculously anal as some that patrol the boards are. I do agree w/you somewhat about the games being held to the same standard. But within that standard, there should be some understanding given to the situation. From what I can see, VC took the most risks this year in attempting to innovate w/their games. They've shown us where sports games are heading. Yes, they have flaws. They could've easily done the easy thing; did the conservative upgrade - and probably been faulted for that (I can see a quietcool review reading "the game is too much like last year's game; they needed to make a more bold statement").

Some of you guys that come off as unforgiving perfectionists are a trip. We have two choices for sports games now - two. I was actually looking forward to Gameday this year; I thought 989 had turned the corner and was going to start making noise. Then they realized it was too much of an uphill battle, and dropped their line of games for this year. Instead of being so critical of every little thing, I'd rather appreciate that there's a company out there that didn't decide to pull back so that we at least have choices. Are you really telling me that you expect a smaller company to take longer developing a game for the sake of trying to get it as near perfect as possible, and STILL be able to compete? I'm not saying the problems in the games shouldn't be fixed, because they should. But some of you guys blow these issues WAY out of proportion.

[totalownership]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

Hmm, interesting. I see that you apply a WAY more laxed standard on VCs game? Ah yes, you are another VC Apologist- OP Sports seems to have its fair share of them. (Like the ones that INSIST they have seen QB spy work once or twice on NFL 2K5).

But lets debate, point by point.
You can let the bugs go? Wow.. that says a ton. Why not just wear a Sega Fanboy shirt and under-roos and be done with it?

You can forgive them if they are "trying to make progress?" Would progress somehow not include fixing the bugs and doing some quality control? Many on this board, after reading that, must be damn glad you aren't a game developer. Again, your fanboy colors are showing.

Ok I stopped right there. After so many insults what's the point of reading further? AGAIN if I see a company trying to make huge strides in their games. Bringing me something different than what I had last year I can forgive SOME things that year. It's not about fanboyism or whatever made up internet buzz word you decide to use this week, it's about seeing a vision of where the company is trying to go and being able to appreciate it. It's about taking an adult view of things. If they come out next year with new features but clean up all that is wrong with it this year then all is good. I don't think they should concentrate next year on bringing a ton of new stuff like they did this year. They accomplished that well, they just need to clean up what they have and add just enough new stuff that doesn't take away from clean up the wonderful game they have now.

What's funny is I can tell who's actually programmed something in their life with a deadline to those who think games come out of a magic bag or come off the videogame tree. I've programmed in my life. And I'll tell you it's not as simple as people think it is.

[totalownership]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

Hmm, interesting. I see that you apply a WAY more laxed standard on VCs game? Ah yes, you are another VC Apologist- OP Sports seems to have its fair share of them. (Like the ones that INSIST they have seen QB spy work once or twice on NFL 2K5).

But lets debate, point by point.
You can let the bugs go? Wow.. that says a ton. Why not just wear a Sega Fanboy shirt and under-roos and be done with it?

You can forgive them if they are "trying to make progress?" Would progress somehow not include fixing the bugs and doing some quality control? Many on this board, after reading that, must be damn glad you aren't a game developer. Again, your fanboy colors are showing.

Ok I stopped right there. After so many insults what's the point of reading further? AGAIN if I see a company trying to make huge strides in their games. Bringing me something different than what I had last year I can forgive SOME things that year. It's not about fanboyism or whatever made up internet buzz word you decide to use this week, it's about seeing a vision of where the company is trying to go and being able to appreciate it. It's about taking an adult view of things. If they come out next year with new features but clean up all that is wrong with it this year then all is good. I don't think they should concentrate next year on bringing a ton of new stuff like they did this year. They accomplished that well, they just need to clean up what they have and add just enough new stuff that doesn't take away from clean up the wonderful game they have now.

What's funny is I can tell who's actually programmed something in their life with a deadline to those who think games come out of a magic bag or come off the videogame tree. I've programmed in my life. And I'll tell you it's not as simple as people think it is.

[Admiral50]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A big bug is a big bug, regardless of how difficult programming is. This bug in particular should not exist. Some goose left the cpu timeouts on manual when they finalized the game.

On other bugs, the reason there's a lot of criticism is because some bug have been there for 3 years!!

[Admiral50]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A big bug is a big bug, regardless of how difficult programming is. This bug in particular should not exist. Some goose left the cpu timeouts on manual when they finalized the game.

On other bugs, the reason there's a lot of criticism is because some bug have been there for 3 years!!

[totalownership]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A big bug is a big bug, regardless of how difficult programming is. This bug in particular should not exist. Some goose left the cpu timeouts on manual when they finalized the game.

On other bugs, the reason there's a lot of criticism is because some bug have been there for 3 years!!

A big bug is everytime you start the 4th quarter the ball disappears and you have to know who has the ball because they're dribbling air. An annoying bug is the Timeout bug. It's annoying but it IS NOT a BIG bug. I don't know what the other bugs that's been around for 3 years. Enlighten me on it cause I really haven't noticed anything but that. I've seen the people going through people thing but that's more a limitation on the system than anything else. It's not a bug , it's just something that's gonna happen if they want to keep the game playing like it is. Again, that's limitation of the system. They could program this game where you'll virtually see NONE of that BUT the game would run so slow it would take 3 minutes just to inbound the ball and get up to half court too many calculations for these systems.

[totalownership]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A big bug is a big bug, regardless of how difficult programming is. This bug in particular should not exist. Some goose left the cpu timeouts on manual when they finalized the game.

On other bugs, the reason there's a lot of criticism is because some bug have been there for 3 years!!

A big bug is everytime you start the 4th quarter the ball disappears and you have to know who has the ball because they're dribbling air. An annoying bug is the Timeout bug. It's annoying but it IS NOT a BIG bug. I don't know what the other bugs that's been around for 3 years. Enlighten me on it cause I really haven't noticed anything but that. I've seen the people going through people thing but that's more a limitation on the system than anything else. It's not a bug , it's just something that's gonna happen if they want to keep the game playing like it is. Again, that's limitation of the system. They could program this game where you'll virtually see NONE of that BUT the game would run so slow it would take 3 minutes just to inbound the ball and get up to half court too many calculations for these systems.

[Court_vision]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A big bug is everytime you start the 4th quarter the ball disappears and you have to know who has the ball because they're dribbling air. An annoying bug is the Timeout bug. It's annoying but it IS NOT a BIG bug. I don't know what the other bugs that's been around for 3 years. Enlighten me on it cause I really haven't noticed anything but that. I've seen the people going through people thing but that's more a limitation on the system than anything else. It's not a bug , it's just something that's gonna happen if they want to keep the game playing like it is. Again, that's limitation of the system. They could program this game where you'll virtually see NONE of that BUT the game would run so slow it would take 3 minutes just to inbound the ball and get up to half court too many calculations for these systems.

How can a bug that TOTALLY changes the nature of the game of basketball NOT be considered a big bug? That ruins every close game???

I hate to agree with QuietCool, as I like VC, but they are getting a severe rep for bugs.

And that's not a good thing...

[Court_vision]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A big bug is everytime you start the 4th quarter the ball disappears and you have to know who has the ball because they're dribbling air. An annoying bug is the Timeout bug. It's annoying but it IS NOT a BIG bug. I don't know what the other bugs that's been around for 3 years. Enlighten me on it cause I really haven't noticed anything but that. I've seen the people going through people thing but that's more a limitation on the system than anything else. It's not a bug , it's just something that's gonna happen if they want to keep the game playing like it is. Again, that's limitation of the system. They could program this game where you'll virtually see NONE of that BUT the game would run so slow it would take 3 minutes just to inbound the ball and get up to half court too many calculations for these systems.

How can a bug that TOTALLY changes the nature of the game of basketball NOT be considered a big bug? That ruins every close game???

I hate to agree with QuietCool, as I like VC, but they are getting a severe rep for bugs.

And that's not a good thing...

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

How can a bug that TOTALLY changes the nature of the game of basketball NOT be considered a big bug? That ruins every close game???

I hate to agree with QuietCool, as I like VC, but they are getting a severe rep for bugs.

And that's not a good thing...

Monkey- I route for VC constantly and I have seen "progress". But its becoming like a cake/icing issue. VC is becoming known for their icing, but their cake underneath is often far from "cooked".

And the cake (relatively bug-free, solid gampelay) should be the foundation the icing (presentation) is built on. Not the other way around. If this was a one year or one game trend, I could see it as something not even worthy of mention. But I'll be damned if this isn't a continuing, alarming trend.

Not everyone criticizing VC is an EA fanboy. I personally like how aggressive VC is, and nobody could ever criticize their graphics and presentation. I have bought every NFL2K game ever made (starting with the ones on Dreamcast.)

And Totalownership, come on man- "a big bug would be the ball dissappearing?" No- that's a game-killing bug. Big bugs are the ones I outlined in my last post. Don't you see how you and spankdata are posting notions that are just as bad as the EA fanboy jokers who have sould their souls to the EA marketing machine?

Should we totally give ALL of VC's games a review score of "10" because they are a smaller company than EA? Because they "try harder"? Flaws are flaws, and bugs are bugs. These are the kind of flaws left in PC games- where a company can afford to "patch later" to "release now." But we are talking consoles here... you know how that goes.

So we should look at all of VC's games and think better of them because they are a smaller company? Look, I love the fact that VC is attempting to take on EA, but lets get one thing straight- poor quality control and shoddy, simply non-existent playtesting followed by surprise early releases is doing nothing to help VC's cause. And - lets call it like we see it- it is now a TREND. It's past a "one game anomoly."

Little story from my own experience- last year I was in a PS2online season for football-gaming(dot)com. There were about four developers from visual concepts actually playing as teams in the same season the rest of us were. (Pretty brave move, huh?) Well, they saw all their gameplay problems, exploits, and bugs play out over the course of the season. The season never finished because so many owners stopped caring after being exploited by gimme routes, super-running back issues from 2K4, Instant Replay challenge issues, and a myriad of other bugs that cropped up over the early part of the season.

To VC's credit, they fixed "superback" in NFL 2K5, but many of the other glitches, bugs, and exploits those four VC designers witnessed with us first-hand in that failed season- went UN-FIXED in 2K5!!!

There's been attempts by many football websites to get Chau and Attwood to comment on the post-release issues, possible patch issues but they are curiously unavailable for comment, nor do they return emails to their email accounts that reviewers/insiders have. (Despite the sheer ease of contacting them during their pre-release marketing phase! Oh trust me- they are WAY available then!)

For a "Small" company, VC sure does its best big-game company "F-You" impersonation after they release a product. They'v really got that EA impersonation down cold!

As for spank's "conservative upgrade" comment- YES, you are correct- I would have preferred the 2K4 presentation staying in the 2K5 games in exchange for less boneheaded bugs and glitches. VC has to get the BASICS down - (Like - uh- timeouts by the AI in an NBA game, etc) as apposed to the slick presentation of the 2K5. You can add that stuff in once your game is solid and has been playtested and tweaked.

I would not have chastized VC in any review of any game if they would have fixed their gameplay and known flaws in favor of keeping the presentation from last year. Again, its the "cake people" (like me) versus the "icing people" like TC and Spank..

Granted, you two could easily get a job at Gamespot as reviewers. You'd fit right in with their "icing-focused" sports reviewers. ( I think their motto- "Gimme graphics or gimme death. Realism doesn't matter because we'd rather be playing Final Fantasy 21 than reviewing a stupid sports game anyway.")

"Icing" is not going to win the battle against EA Sports. You won't have to take my word for that, you'll see it. Especially next year for 2K6. Lots of people who buy the EA games normally picked up the 2K5 games on the cheap- liked the icing and glitz at first, and then dove into some pretty stale cake that made them go back to their EA games. I've talked to a good cross-section of people about this. Sure, to each his own- but unfinished products aren't gonna win this battle. Do you realize how many people decided - based on the posts on this website- to buy NBA Live instead of ESPN NBA 2K5? You see, VC's games are quickly becoming the games you let someone else buy first, wait for them to find serious bugs, then go buy the graphically inferior yet clearly more play-tested and polished EA game. I don't necessarily agree with this philosophy, but I see it every day on multiple boards. (And- to be fair to VC, they KICKED EA'S BUTT in hockey this year- you knew EA was pushing a loser when they fired the head of the NHL 2005 team a week and a half before releasing the game!)

But I know I'm one of many many people who would gladly trade in Suzy Kolber's canned post-game interviews and "The Crib" for some solid, tested, polished gameplay... where the AI takes timeouts in franchise basketball games.

Like Junior Soprano says. "If you are gonna show up, show up heavy- or don't show up at all."

That is- if you hope to win the hearts and minds of the EA faithful.

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

How can a bug that TOTALLY changes the nature of the game of basketball NOT be considered a big bug? That ruins every close game???

I hate to agree with QuietCool, as I like VC, but they are getting a severe rep for bugs.

And that's not a good thing...

Monkey- I route for VC constantly and I have seen "progress". But its becoming like a cake/icing issue. VC is becoming known for their icing, but their cake underneath is often far from "cooked".

And the cake (relatively bug-free, solid gampelay) should be the foundation the icing (presentation) is built on. Not the other way around. If this was a one year or one game trend, I could see it as something not even worthy of mention. But I'll be damned if this isn't a continuing, alarming trend.

Not everyone criticizing VC is an EA fanboy. I personally like how aggressive VC is, and nobody could ever criticize their graphics and presentation. I have bought every NFL2K game ever made (starting with the ones on Dreamcast.)

And Totalownership, come on man- "a big bug would be the ball dissappearing?" No- that's a game-killing bug. Big bugs are the ones I outlined in my last post. Don't you see how you and spankdata are posting notions that are just as bad as the EA fanboy jokers who have sould their souls to the EA marketing machine?

Should we totally give ALL of VC's games a review score of "10" because they are a smaller company than EA? Because they "try harder"? Flaws are flaws, and bugs are bugs. These are the kind of flaws left in PC games- where a company can afford to "patch later" to "release now." But we are talking consoles here... you know how that goes.

So we should look at all of VC's games and think better of them because they are a smaller company? Look, I love the fact that VC is attempting to take on EA, but lets get one thing straight- poor quality control and shoddy, simply non-existent playtesting followed by surprise early releases is doing nothing to help VC's cause. And - lets call it like we see it- it is now a TREND. It's past a "one game anomoly."

Little story from my own experience- last year I was in a PS2online season for football-gaming(dot)com. There were about four developers from visual concepts actually playing as teams in the same season the rest of us were. (Pretty brave move, huh?) Well, they saw all their gameplay problems, exploits, and bugs play out over the course of the season. The season never finished because so many owners stopped caring after being exploited by gimme routes, super-running back issues from 2K4, Instant Replay challenge issues, and a myriad of other bugs that cropped up over the early part of the season.

To VC's credit, they fixed "superback" in NFL 2K5, but many of the other glitches, bugs, and exploits those four VC designers witnessed with us first-hand in that failed season- went UN-FIXED in 2K5!!!

There's been attempts by many football websites to get Chau and Attwood to comment on the post-release issues, possible patch issues but they are curiously unavailable for comment, nor do they return emails to their email accounts that reviewers/insiders have. (Despite the sheer ease of contacting them during their pre-release marketing phase! Oh trust me- they are WAY available then!)

For a "Small" company, VC sure does its best big-game company "F-You" impersonation after they release a product. They'v really got that EA impersonation down cold!

As for spank's "conservative upgrade" comment- YES, you are correct- I would have preferred the 2K4 presentation staying in the 2K5 games in exchange for less boneheaded bugs and glitches. VC has to get the BASICS down - (Like - uh- timeouts by the AI in an NBA game, etc) as apposed to the slick presentation of the 2K5. You can add that stuff in once your game is solid and has been playtested and tweaked.

I would not have chastized VC in any review of any game if they would have fixed their gameplay and known flaws in favor of keeping the presentation from last year. Again, its the "cake people" (like me) versus the "icing people" like TC and Spank..

Granted, you two could easily get a job at Gamespot as reviewers. You'd fit right in with their "icing-focused" sports reviewers. ( I think their motto- "Gimme graphics or gimme death. Realism doesn't matter because we'd rather be playing Final Fantasy 21 than reviewing a stupid sports game anyway.")

"Icing" is not going to win the battle against EA Sports. You won't have to take my word for that, you'll see it. Especially next year for 2K6. Lots of people who buy the EA games normally picked up the 2K5 games on the cheap- liked the icing and glitz at first, and then dove into some pretty stale cake that made them go back to their EA games. I've talked to a good cross-section of people about this. Sure, to each his own- but unfinished products aren't gonna win this battle. Do you realize how many people decided - based on the posts on this website- to buy NBA Live instead of ESPN NBA 2K5? You see, VC's games are quickly becoming the games you let someone else buy first, wait for them to find serious bugs, then go buy the graphically inferior yet clearly more play-tested and polished EA game. I don't necessarily agree with this philosophy, but I see it every day on multiple boards. (And- to be fair to VC, they KICKED EA'S BUTT in hockey this year- you knew EA was pushing a loser when they fired the head of the NHL 2005 team a week and a half before releasing the game!)

But I know I'm one of many many people who would gladly trade in Suzy Kolber's canned post-game interviews and "The Crib" for some solid, tested, polished gameplay... where the AI takes timeouts in franchise basketball games.

Like Junior Soprano says. "If you are gonna show up, show up heavy- or don't show up at all."

That is- if you hope to win the hearts and minds of the EA faithful.

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

I don't know what the other bugs that's been around for 3 years. Enlighten me on it

Well, I'll let Admiral50 answer for the basketball series. I already enlightened you on the "still unfixed from 2Ks past" football bugs. Unfortunately, NFL 2K5 kept many of those...

..and added too many more.

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

I don't know what the other bugs that's been around for 3 years. Enlighten me on it

Well, I'll let Admiral50 answer for the basketball series. I already enlightened you on the "still unfixed from 2Ks past" football bugs. Unfortunately, NFL 2K5 kept many of those...

..and added too many more.