The Allen Iverson Saga

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

When you're playing against the best team in the West, it's unfair and inaccurate to base progress off of simple wins and losses. How you played against the best is an indicator of which way you're going, and what you need to do to get over the hump. In 08, they just laid down and died against LA. This year, they had a real chance to win. That is huge progress.

No one ever said that they were a bad regular season team with AI. They were ultimately a joke though. They didn't play any defense, and anyone who knows basketball knew that the well would run dry in the playoffs. With Chauncy, they are down to figuring out that last minor ingredient between contender and champion. Last year, they had to make the jump from pretender to contender.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Chauncey isn't the difference in the defense though, bottom line. He helps, but that's not the difference. That's all I'm arguing... there were SO many other factors aside from the defensive improvement from AI to Chauncey. Losing Camby and essentially adding 2 of the better big man defenders in Kenyon and Nene as well as 2 defensive specialists in Jones and Birdman was huge. Then having an actual philosophy on defense that fits with the team's personnel and actually practicing defense made the rest of the difference. Chauncey's brain and knowledge of the game on both ends of the floor can't be underestimated, but that wasn't the main reason that our defense improved.

We could've played tough defense with AI but the scheme was so disjointed that nobody knew what they were supposed to be doing (except Camby, whose MO was "block ****"), which is what led to all those wide-open threes. If we had the switching system we used against NO implemented last season, AI's lack of defensive ability wouldn't have been any kind of focus because help is always there and the shooters are closed out on regardless. All that came in the off-season before we even acquired Chauncey.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Chauncey's brain and knowledge of the game on both ends of the floor can't be underestimated, but that wasn't the main reason that our defense improved.

That's all I'm saying...

AI's lack of defensive ability wouldn't have been any kind of focus because help is always there and the shooters are closed out on regardless.

ehh....I dunno about that. Iverson hasn't been on a good defensive team in five years and Chauncey hasn't been on a bad defensive team in five years. Last year they switched teams and Chauncey's good defensive team quickly became a bad one, and Iverson's bad defensive team because a good one.

Coincidence? I think not.

Iverson is a bad influence and Chauncey is a good influence. The ability to stick to a defensive gameplan is a byproduct of good leadership.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Or y'know, having an actual defensive gameplan to execute. "Gambling for steals" and "letting Marcus block the shots" isn't a gameplan.

To use your example above, Detroit has always been known for its defense as part of its team history/culture and a team that emphasized defense in practices, etc... so it's no surprise that they were a good defensive team. Denver has always been a team that emphasizes offense and lets the rest just happen -- until last year, when the coaches had a meeting and decided that wasn't going to fly anymore and started practicing defense and developing schemes to use against certain teams/players. Suddenly they're a good defensive team... coincidence? I think not.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Iverson fosters a losing culture, and Chauncey fosters a winning culture. That's all I'm saying. No way am I saying that there were no other factors to the Nuggets' improvement, but I do think that was the main factor on court.

[P2K]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Or y'know, having an actual defensive gameplan to execute. "Gambling for steals" and "letting Marcus block the shots" isn't a gameplan.

To use your example above, Detroit has always been known for its defense as part of its team history/culture and a team that emphasized defense in practices, etc... so it's no surprise that they were a good defensive team. Denver has always been a team that emphasizes offense and lets the rest just happen -- until last year, when the coaches had a meeting and decided that wasn't going to fly anymore and started practicing defense and developing schemes to use against certain teams/players. Suddenly they're a good defensive team... coincidence? I think not.

Ever think they switched things up because the coaches knew there wasn't a black hole out there on the perimeter? And the player that replaced that black hole cracked the whip out there to the point where even Melo concentrated on where he was supposed to be on defense?

You're right...there were other factors, but I'm just sayin'...

[Stumbleweed]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

No, they switched it up in the off-season, before the Chauncey trade. That big SI (or ESPN the magazine.. can't remember) article on Chauncey's arrival said that the front office noticed that AI was starting to slow down a bit in training camp and then heard that Chauncey was on the market right before the season started and opted to make the move. It was a combination of things, but mostly a near-perfect set of circumstances (hometown boy, smart defensive player, great floor general, DET rebuilding, AI's giant expiring contract) that contributed to the trade. But it wasn't a case of "oh, now we have Chauncey, so we can finally work on defense" -- that was all planned beforehand, shortly after getting swept by the Lakers.

But yeah, I can't deny that Chauncey's presence and commitment to defense rubbed off on other players. He's almost solely responsible for JR's improved defense... you always see him talking to him after plays, etc. and it's done a lot for his attitude about defense as well, since Chauncey gives him props when he does something good.

[P2K]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

No, they switched it up in the off-season, before the Chauncey trade. That big SI (or ESPN the magazine.. can't remember) article on Chauncey's arrival said that the front office noticed that AI was starting to slow down a bit in training camp and then heard that Chauncey was on the market right before the season started and opted to make the move. It was a combination of things, but mostly a near-perfect set of circumstances (hometown boy, smart defensive player, great floor general, DET rebuilding, AI's giant expiring contract) that contributed to the trade. But it wasn't a case of "oh, now we have Chauncey, so we can finally work on defense" -- that was all planned beforehand, shortly after getting swept by the Lakers.

Ah okay, my bad then.

[candiasis]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Iverson fosters a losing culture, and Chauncey fosters a winning culture. That's all I'm saying. No way am I saying that there were no other factors to the Nuggets' improvement, but I do think that was the main factor on court.

Thats a pretty sweeping statement, sure Chauncey has an incredible career (in fact an amazing career), but AI's no loser as well, his teams have been to the post season most of his career (and some of those rosters were absolutely pitiful). I still think Denver would have been good with AI last year, probably not as good as with Chauncey since he was the better fit, but still woulda at least made the semis imo. AI has played on good defensive teams before (eg philly in 01), in fact he does well on good defensive teams since it gives him more safe leeway to gamble safely for steals as the help will be there. The help was never there when he was with denver, it was only camby on the weakside, last year as stumbleweed says denver acquired dhantay jones, andersen and had a 100% Nene and Kmart back in action, the team was always gonna do better with or without ai (not to mention the fact that karl finally saw that scoring 150 a game wasn't the way to win and that the West was significantly weaker).

The playing Carter + AI situation in Denver reminded me of the pitiful 3 guard lineup Curry was runnign in detroit when ai got there (AI, Stuckey, Rip), they just got slaughtered by bigger teams for so many games. Sigh.

[TMagic]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

What I'm wondering is if there is if any of the contenders have the money to sign A.I.?

I mean, what's the worse that can happen really? He doesn't mesh well, and the team plays bad, then you don't play him. Then you're back to working with the same team you had before A.I. arrived.

But wouldn't it be crazy if one of the contenders took a chance on him and it worked out?

Other teams would be kicking themselves for not giving him a shot, that is, if they had the means of acquiring him and not giving much up.

So I just simmed a season on 2K to see which team would pick up A.I. just for kicks.

And would you believe it, the Lakers picked him up. LOL

They went on to have the league's best record AND beat the Celtics in the finals for the Championship.

It just might be crazy enough to work.

[23]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

2k has a rep for being unrealistic, Tmagic

[TMagic]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

2k has a rep for being unrealistic, Tmagic

I guess you're right.

Just simmed another one...

This time A.I. went to the Pistons...They finished number one in the East and went on to win the NBA Championship.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

LOL, oh 2K...

[bball_1523]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

I guess you're right.

Just simmed another one...

This time A.I. went to the Pistons...They finished number one in the East and went on to win the NBA Championship.

Can you keep simming a season until the bulls get him and see if they win a championship? lol j/k

[NBA2k8 CHAMP]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Good post.

I just think about it this way Stumble, yall wouldn't have beat NO's with AI, and you wouldn't have taken LA to 6 games with AI last year. I hate to be that simplistic, but it's just how I feel.

That's the bottom line in my eyes. I just don't think your team ever had a chance with AI.

Now? I think you guys are true contenders.

lol @ the Nuggets being true contenders.


Stumble actually knows his team.