The Allen Iverson Saga

[zfinley]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Good job OSUfan,
I'm so tempted to start a topic, so everyone can name all the players in the league who are effective without the ball in their hands. Because I literally have no idea what that means.

Are players that can't create their own shot and players who are effective without the ball the same thing? Because they get bashed pretty bad for that as well. I need answers OS!!!

No, just Iverson cause everyone is going off what they seen last year with the pistons. Remember no one cares about the good stuff just the bad. A remember a few years back Kobe was ready to bounce from the LA Lakers and at the time he had more than Iverson had.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Good job OSUfan,
I'm so tempted to start a topic, so everyone can name all the players in the league who are effective without the ball in their hands. Because I literally have no idea what that means.

Are players that can't create their own shot and players who are effective without the ball the same thing? Because they get bashed pretty bad for that as well. I need answers OS!!!

There are three basic phases of the offense in which a player can be effective, in the context of this conversation.

1. Initiating the play with the ball
2. Helping the play happen without the ball
3. Finishing a play with the ball

Obviously, whoever finishes a play(3) has to have the ball, but the ball movement that occurs before that is the result of strong team play. Lebron is a fine example of a guy who does 1 and 3 very well. He can rebound, bring the ball up and start the play with dribble penetration. Then he has the court vision to help another more limited player execute his specialty, be it a spot up jump shot or a dunk/layup. Lebron also can be a part of a play where he doesn't touch the ball until the end, because he can finish at the rim with his size, athleticism and the footwork required to make a great cut.

Anderson Verajao is an example of a guy who is very good at (2), but only marginal at (3), and totally useless at (1). Because of his ability to set a great screen, Anderson helps a play happen without the ball.

Ray Allen is a great example of a guy who has been very good at all three for most of his career. His shooting ability, athleticism and skill allow him to finish, his ball handle allows him to initiate, and his execution and cardiovascular conditioning allow him to run off of screens for a good portion of the 24 second clock, which often distracts the defense and can allow for an easier post up or penetration for another player.

Iverson is ineffective without the ball because as a mediocre jumpshooter, he can't spot up and as a little man he can't finish at the rim off of a cut. He wanders when he doesn't have the ball, so if he isn't dribbling he isn't helping the play with cuts or screens. While he has the skills to pass, he doesn't maintain the pass first mentality to allow his teammates maximum benefit from his ability to break down the D.

The worst kind of productive offensive players are the ones who can only finish with the ball(3) if they initiate the play(1), because that is a stagnant offense that allows the defense to play to its strengths.

[Muzyk23]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Iverson used to be very effective without the ball in his Philly (Larry Brown) times so don't act like he's never done it. He was coming off of screens and shooting the ball the moment he got it.

In Denver it was all isolation plays becuase that was the Denver's offensive philosphy at that moment.

You are right about Ray Allen but he rarely creates of the dribble which isn't one of his strenghts.

[tehova]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

So in theory Lamar Odom would be the poster child for effective without the ball.

And how does it count for being effective without the ball, if the ball is actually in your hands. (i.e. intiating the offense).

More importantly, since the very top players in the game don't even fit into this particular category is it even a negative criticism? (i.e. CP3, Dwill,Wade,Melo, BRoy etc etc)

Either you dribble a lot or shoot a lot, sometimes both.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

So in theory Lamar Odom would be the poster child for effective without the ball.

Actually, yes. That's why Odom finds success on a team with ball dominant players and shooters. He's versatile enough to be a facilitator, finisher and non-ball carrying member in a successful play, depending on the situation.

And how does it count for being effective without the ball, if the ball is actually in your hands. (i.e. intiating the offense).

It doesn't, but it is a huge positive when you can consistently initiate a play without having to finish it. You can play both danger and decoy in an offense, as Kobe did against the Nuggets.

More importantly, since the very top players in the game don't even fit into this particular category is it even a negative criticism? (i.e. CP3, Dwill,Wade,Melo, BRoy etc etc)

All of those guys play or have played point guard effectively and some of those guys are effective on a catch and shoot, or alley oop play. Point guards are ideally effective initiators without having to be effective finishers.

Either you dribble a lot or shoot a lot, sometimes both.

The problem is when you dribble a lot, and then shoot all in the same play.

[Jukeman]

Re: Iverson wants to go to Memphis?

Except LeBron, Wade and Kobe all bring something else to the table other than scoring, unlike Iverson.

yet, they are all well over 6'0 200 LBs....

Every year on draft night you hear "this combo guard is too small to guard the two and be effective on defense" Their are only a handful of undersize scoring guards that did what AI has done....his worst year is a one year's wonder career best....

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Iverson wants to go to Memphis?

yet, they are all well over 6'0 200 LBs....

That's the point LOL

The point still remains unanswered [pun intended] that NO teams seem to want him.

The only teams showing remote interest are the worst squads in the league

Memphis.. Clippers.. Dude can't even get a for sure bite from them

Look I love Iverson, but the people blindly defending him is what's baffling to me. Step the knowledge game up.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: Iverson wants to go to Memphis?

yet, they are all well over 6'0 200 LBs....

Yeah, that's pretty much my point. They are all bigger, stronger, better defenders, and younger.

[goh]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

I'll take him on the Clips if he'll come off the bench and be willing to play some PG.

[zfinley]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

I'll take him on the Clips if he'll come off the bench and be willing to play some PG.

I wouldn't. Why would you back up a PG thats not better then you?
If he really was considering coming off the bench he might as well go to the lakers or celtics atleast they have players on his level to backup.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

I wouldn't. Why would you back up a PG thats not better then you?
If he really was considering coming off the bench he might as well go to the lakers or celtics atleast they have players on his level to backup.

LMAO

LA and BOS wouldn't take Iverson if Iverson paid them himself

[candiasis]

Re: Iverson wants to go to Memphis?

That's the point LOL

The point still remains unanswered [pun intended] that NO teams seem to want him.

The only teams showing remote interest are the worst squads in the league

Memphis.. Clippers.. Dude can't even get a for sure bite from them

Look I love Iverson, but the people blindly defending him is what's baffling to me. Step the knowledge game up.

Write the guy off however much you fukn want man, bottom line is ai has done more in his career than most nba players could ever realistically dream of doing. Apparently the guy just dribbles down the clock and can't shoot for ****, yet he averages 6 and a half assists a game for his career (to go along with 27 points) and has four scoring titles. Do the math, use your brain, the guy can shoot the open jumper all day, have a look at this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8recGRGbpo 7 3s in one quarter in an international game.

Not everyone wins a ring man, many great players have not won rings. And everyone gettign on ai about his defense, the dude has almsot single handedly won games with his steals alone, ive seen him win games with a steal on the inbounds play to a layup on the other end just before the buzzer, he grabbed 9 steals ina playoff game early in his career against orlando in a playoff game i remember. Whilst he gambles the payoff can be very good, the dude has racked up the steals hard over the course of his career, and is a good defensive pest (only playeer to win scoring titles and steals titles simultaneously for mutliple years, other being mj).

And for the people criticising his height, it is not hard for a team to run with a big defensive 2 guard who can guard iverson's opposite and initiate the offense if ais playing the 2. Not hard.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Iverson wants to go to Memphis?

Write the guy off however much you fukn want man, bottom line is ai has done more in his career than most nba players could ever realistically dream of doing. Apparently the guy just dribbles down the clock and can't shoot for ****, yet he averages 6 and a half assists a game for his career (to go along with 27 points) and has four scoring titles. Do the math, use your brain, the guy can shoot the open jumper all day, have a look at this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8recGRGbpo 7 3s in one quarter in an international game.

Not everyone wins a ring man, many great players have not won rings.

The guy has had a tremendous career.

To deny that would show a lack of knowledge.

This has nothing to do with rings. It has to do with a player who has aged and is not the same player he was 8 years ago. It's about a player who has never changed his style of play which has resulted in no teams now wanting him, let alone a contender.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

Clippers make no sense to me at all unless they're planning to trade B-Diddy or someone else in the backcourt. I have no idea why AI would be in "serious negotiations" unless they offered him a starting spot or very good money/PT to come off the bench. Eric gordon was a 16 PPG scorer in his rookie year and spaces the floor for Blake MUCH better than AI would at the 2 spot... don't think they want to stunt his growth by making him a bench player behind a guy who plays over 40 MPG most nights.

Miami makes SO much more sense than this, especially since they're probably in the playoffs again next season. Even the Grizzlies make more sense than this...

[zfinley]

Re: The Allen Iverson Saga

MJ played til he was 39. I've never seen someone attack him the way people attack A.I. It's kind of sad to see people doubt such a great player he didn't want anything but to win a ring before he retired...