The LeBron James Thread

[OSUFan_88]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

Roddy B. is no marginal player. Maybe I'm just high on him but I love his level of play and I do see the Tony Parker comparisons.

Either way, out of the possible destinations, Dallas does present the mix of best packages.

I don't think the Cavaliers could get Roddy B, that's the problem.

[Altimus]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

I don't think the Cavaliers could get Roddy B, that's the problem.

I know Cuban has stated Roddy is untouchable but this is LBJ we're talking about.

[ZB9]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

I don't think the Cavaliers could get Roddy B, that's the problem.

Dallas would certainly try and keep Beaubois...but if Lebron actually wanted to go to Dallas, and on top of Damp and Caron and perhaps a draft pick, it took Roddy B to get the Cavs to agree to a S&T, I imagine Cuban would personally bubble wrap Roddy's things to Cleveland

[Dalsanto0026]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

Why do people love this straw man argument so much? Does anyone think comparing roleplayers to superstars ever holds any weight? No one has ever said anything about comparing Fisher to Lebron or Horry to Barkley. One people compare GREAT players, the amount of championships that they LEAD their teams to is one of--but not the only--the biggest factors in how they rate people. It's not a perfect system and it's not math, but the bottom line is that once you get to the Finals, people can see the ultimate test of your skill, particularly if both conferences have legit contenders like in the 80s and the modern era.

On your other point, it's well documented that Kobe is "at least twice as popular as James on the international level." They talked about it during the Olympics, and it has only been reenforced by Kobe winning back to back championships and going to the Finals 3 times in a row. Lebron will be the most popular player in the world soon enough.

The amount of championship rings a player has doesn't determine his greatness. When will people realise this.

Basketball is a TEAM sport, great TEAMS win championships, not one player. If Jordan played in a team full of duds do you honestly think he would've won any rings? Probably not. Would that mean then that he wouldn't have been generally regarded as the best player to ever play the game because he didn't have a ring? That's just stupid. He still has the same skills.

Championship rings aren't individual awards so why do so many people insist on using this as a measure of individual greatness?

[ZB9]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

The amount of championship rings a player has doesn't determine his greatness. When will people realise this.

Basketball is a TEAM sport, great TEAMS win championships, not one player. If Jordan played in a team full of duds do you honestly think he wouldv'e won any rings? Probably not. Would that mean then that he wouldn't have been generally regarded as the best player to ever play the game because he didn't have a ring? That's just stupid. He still has the same skills.

Championship rings aren't individual awards so why do so many people insist on using this as a measure of individual greatness?

yes thank you...and this BS criteria seems to be more emphasized in the NBA than any other team sport, in the US or around the world. Im curious where this fallacy came from

championships are important obviously but it's ridiculous how rings are considered by many to be the main standard in judging NBA players

[Jonesy]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

If Jordan played in a team full of duds do you honestly think he would've won any rings? Probably not. Would that mean then that he wouldn't have been generally regarded as the best player to ever play the game because he didn't have a ring? That's just stupid. He still has the same skills.

Dead wrong imo. If Jordan had put up the same stats on team that won 30 games every year and never won a title there is no doubt he would not be considered the GOAT. Winning is the biggest difference between the way the true greats and the pretenders are categorized.

Championship rings aren't individual awards so why do so many people insist on using this as a measure of individual greatness?

Because basketball is such an individual sport that the leading player on a team usually plays the biggest role in whether a team wins or not. Take a look at Wilt and Bill Russell. Wilt put up rediculous stats but only won one title. Russell put up lower stats but played on better teams and won 11 titles. Which player is widely considered the better player of the 2?

yes thank you...and this BS criteria seems to be more emphasized in the NBA than any other team sport, in the US or around the world. Im curious where this fallacy came from

because there is only 5 players on a basketball team on the court at any one time. It's common sense that a single player could have more impact on the result of a basketball game more so than nearly any other team sport (football, baseball, soccer etc).

[Dalsanto0026]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

Dead wrong imo. If Jordan had put up the same stats on team that won 30 games every year and never won a title there is no doubt he would not be considered the GOAT. Winning is the biggest difference between the way the true greats and the pretenders are categorized.

Because basketball is such an individual sport that the leading player on a team usually plays the biggest role in whether a team wins or not. Take a look at Wilt and Bill Russell. Wilt put up rediculous stats but only won one title. Russell put up lower stats but played on better teams and won 11 titles. Which player is widely considered the better player of the 2?

because there is only 5 players on a basketball team on the court at any one time. It's common sense that a single player could have more impact on the result of a basketball game more so than nearly any other team sport (football, baseball, soccer etc).

That's a silly argument imo. We'd still be marvelling at his skills.

You have to look at what the individual is capable of, no one has the superhuman ability to carry a team of duds to a championship, everyone needs some help.

Common sense should still prevail and acknowledge Jordan as the most highly skilled player. Since this is an individual honor I look at the individual performance not the team's record, when judging players.

I'd rather have Wilt on my team than Russell, and you've just illustrated how flawed this "rings determine greatness" argument is. Russell was on a better TEAM, that's the key word here. Wilt was a more dominant player than Russell was. Unfortunately for him the players around him weren't as good as Russell's teammates.

A player's greatness shouldn't be downplayed because he didn't get enough help to win a ring.

[BlueNGold]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

That's a silly argument imo. We'd still be marvelling at his skills.

You have to look at what the individual is capable of, no one has the superhuman ability to carry a team of duds to a championship, everyone needs some help.

Common sense should still prevail and acknowledge Jordan as the most highly skilled player. Since this is an individual honor I look at the individual performance not the team's record, when judging players.

I'd rather have Wilt on my team than Russell, and you've just illustrated how flawed this "rings determine greatness" argument is. Russell was on a better TEAM, that's the key word here. Wilt was a more dominant player than Russell was. Unfortunately for him the players around him weren't as good as Russell's teammates.

A player's greatness shouldn't be downplayed because he didn't get enough help to win a ring.

So you'd rather have the dickhead that worried only about "getting his", took nights off and pissed off his teammates (sounds familiar, lol) over probably the best defensive player of all time that actually understood the team concept?

[Jonesy]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

That's a silly argument imo. We'd still be marvelling at his skills.

You'd marvel at his skills but he wouldn't be considered a winner and therefore wouldn't be considered the goat. If you can't see that then it's pointless discussing it. Anybody who plays well but doesn't win has an asterisk next to their name whether you care to admit or not

I'd rather have Wilt on my team than Russell,

I'm not sure if you know anything about the history of the nba but judging by every anecdote, documentary and book i have seen that is the complete opposite of what pretty much everyone else in the era says. Hey maybe you know something they don't?

and you've just illustrated how flawed this "rings determine greatness" argument is. Russell was on a better TEAM, that's the key word here. Wilt was a more dominant player than Russell was. Unfortunately for him the players around him weren't as good as Russell's teammates.

A player's greatness shouldn't be downplayed because he didn't get enough help to win a ring.

true great's lift the level of their teammates to that level. Why do you think Tim Duncan is wholly proclaimed the best PF of all time despite the fact his career is statistically less potent than Barkley or Malone? Until a player wins a title he can never be truly considered a GOAT level player its a simple as that.

answers in bold

[Dalsanto0026]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

I disagree.

I'm sure you're aware of Wilt's numbers. His scoring and rebounding numbers give some indication of his dominance. I'm aware of his negative reputation off the court but I'm talking about what he does on it, this isn't humanitarian honors we're talking about here, it's basketball ability.

I don't think players should be judged on the number of rings they have. The arguments against have done little to sway me. I can see we're not going to agree on this so there's no point going any further.

Anyway this debate is off topic so I'll stop now.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

I disagree.

I'm sure you're aware of Wilt's numbers. His scoring and rebounding numbers give some indication of his dominance. I'm aware of his negative reputation off the court but I'm talking about what he does on it, this isn't humanitarian honors we're talking about here, it's basketball ability.

I don't think players should be judged on the number of rings they have. The arguments against have done little to sway me. I can see we're not going to agree on this so there's no point going any further.

Anyway this debate is off topic so I'll stop now.

Here is why I think that people widely consider rings as a measuring point in basketball:

Michael Jordan averaged 30.1 points per game. Allen Iverson had averaged (before these last two years which were awful) 27.7 points per game. Michael Jordan has 6 rings. Allen Iverson has 0. Now the reason Mike is considered the greatest is because of what he did on the teams he was given. Obviously you can't knock a guy who was on bad teams, but AI scoring 28 points per game on perennially bad teams just says that he could pretty much do whatever he wanted because he had no help. Jordan scored 30 points every night just in the flow of the offense on teams where he couldn't just shoot randomly. So it's not necessarily the stats that he put up, but moreso the fact that he put up those stats in games that mattered where he wasn't the only option and had to share the ball whereas AI could just do what he wanted because he was not only the man, but the only man. In that same situation, Mike could've dropped 40 a game, but because he was part of a team and not just the team himself, he still could do his thing while bringing out the best in others. Does that make sense?

[boomhauertjs]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

Back to the topic of the sign-and-trade, if the Cavs were to sign and trade LeBron, I'd rather see them dump some of their more onerous contracts (Jamison, Williams) as part of the deal and maybe get back one good young player (Beaubois) and multiple draft picks.

[Dalsanto0026]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

Here is why I think that people widely consider rings as a measuring point in basketball:

Michael Jordan averaged 30.1 points per game. Allen Iverson had averaged (before these last two years which were awful) 27.7 points per game. Michael Jordan has 6 rings. Allen Iverson has 0. Now the reason Mike is considered the greatest is because of what he did on the teams he was given. Obviously you can't knock a guy who was on bad teams, but AI scoring 28 points per game on perennially bad teams just says that he could pretty much do whatever he wanted because he had no help. Jordan scored 30 points every night just in the flow of the offense on teams where he couldn't just shoot randomly. So it's not necessarily the stats that he put up, but moreso the fact that he put up those stats in games that mattered where he wasn't the only option and had to share the ball whereas AI could just do what he wanted because he was not only the man, but the only man. In that same situation, Mike could've dropped 40 a game, but because he was part of a team and not just the team himself, he still could do his thing while bringing out the best in others. Does that make sense?

I understand exacly what you're saying and I totally agree with your comments about AI.

Let me put it this way, for arguments sake if you swapped those two players and had Jordan playing for the Sixers and AI playing for the Bulls, I think it would still be obvious that Jordan is the better player based on his skillset. In a team like the Sixers he wouldn't have won six rings though, so does that mean he wouldn't deserve GOAT honors? He'd still basically be the same player as the Bulls version only he wouldn't enjoy the same level of team success. Is it fair to not acknowledge his greatness in this example because of this lack of success? He could've still come up with the same number of clutch performances and freakish plays but that would be overlooked because he doesn't have a ring?

[Dalsanto0026]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

I got side tracked, sorry about that. Back to the topic.

[wildcatchild]

Re: The Official "Where is LeBron going?" Thread

Anyone ever read the Hoops Hype website? It contains a "rumors" section that provides links to NBA stories across the country. Everyone is claiming to know "inside info" on the LeBron sweepstakes. Apparently the Knicks are confident he's coming, people are convinced he's going to Miami with Bosh, and then the majority of people think he's Chicago's to lose.

Here's what I think: Nobody knows anything at this point!!!! It's all a bunch of crap. And that goes for the "insiders" on ESPN. Until I see some overwhealming evidence between now and midnight, i.e., all media outlets reporting FACTS instead of rumors, I am assuming LeBron is staying in Cleveland.

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm