The LeBron James Thread

[TMagic]

Yes I still think he could average 40 today. Hell I think LeBron right now could average 40 if he just unleashed his full potential and looked to score first and foremost. Hell Jordan averaged 4.6 assists while scoring out of his mind. We just spent the last two weeks talking about LeBron's 70-80 percent shooting at the rim and now we're talking about zone defenses clogging the rim deterring Michael Jordan's scoring? Bron in just his last five games prior to last night was 37-44 in the paint. There is no doubt in my mind that if you put Jordan in today's NBA and on a team as bad as the one he averaged 37.1 on that he could get to 40.

If you don't agree that's fine, I ain't mad at you. I did preface my point with my Jordan bias on this one.

The math simply doesn't work though my man.

Jordan's best fg% was about 54% (whats also interesting is that as his game became more "refined" or skilled, his fg% dropped). And that was in a period where FG% were higher across the board. But we'll give him 55% just for simplicity.

Dwight Howard has averaged about 10 FT a game the past few seasons. Highest in the league year in and year out. Thats with teams hacking him just for the hell of it. No other wing player is getting that many. But lets give Jordan that number of attempts anyway.

Kobe, whom is considered the NBAs resident chucker, has averaged roughly 22 shot attempts a game the past couple of seasons. Westbrook 18. Melo 20. But lets just give Jordan 30 attempts a game.

If you gave Jordan all of that, he would have 41. He would have to average those numbers night in and night out to get his 40.

Any 40 point night is amazing today. Its a rarity even with talent like Durant, Melo, Kobe, etc. Yet we want to assume that 40 would just fall in Jordans lap nightly? Not buying it.

Its not that I don't think he or a guy like Lebron couldn't do it. I think they could if they wanted to. But like X said, they would have to go into straight "yolo" mode every night to do so. They wouldn't care about winning. Just about the stat. And the coach would be have to be ok with it.

It just doesn't seem realistic no matter how you stretch it.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

The math simply doesn't work though my man.

Jordan's best fg% was about 54% (whats also interesting is that as his game became more "refined" or skilled, his fg% dropped). And that was in a period where FG% were higher across the board. But we'll give him 55% just for simplicity.

Dwight Howard has averaged about 10 FT a game the past few seasons. Highest in the league year in and year out. Thats with teams hacking him just for the hell of it. No other wing player is getting that many. But lets give Jordan that number of attempts anyway.

Kobe, whom is considered the NBAs resident chucker, has averaged roughly 22 shot attempts a game the past couple of seasons. Westbrook 18. Melo 20. But lets just give Jordan 30 attempts a game.

If you gave Jordan all of that, he would have 41. He would have to average those numbers night in and night out to get his 40.

Any 40 point night is amazing today. Its a rarity even with talent like Durant, Melo, Kobe, etc. Yet we want to assume that 40 would just fall in Jordans lap nightly? Not buying it.

Its not that I don't think he or a guy like Lebron couldn't do it. I think they could if they wanted to. But like X said, they would have to go into straight "yolo" mode every night to do so. They wouldn't care about winning. Just about the stat. And the coach would be have to be ok with it.

It just doesn't seem realistic no matter how you stretch it.

Skirting past the hypotheticals, the man did average 37 ppg... so I can see why someone wouldn't think 40 is a stretch.

As for the numbers I'm not sure how you're getting to 41. You're giving him 30 shots a game and saying he'll shoot 54%... that's 16 or 17 makes per game which puts him at 32 or 34 points right there, not factoring in 3's. In today's game Jordan would hit more 3's but even if we give him 1 a game then we're at 33 or 35 ppg.

Now I don't think Dwight is a good example bc he doesn't have the opportunity to get to the line as much as a wing player. We're using Durant from today but I'd say a better example would be Wade in his prime... anyway, I think 10 ftpg is a good minimum to go with and off the top of my head, MJ shot 84%. We'll say 80% since it's an educated guess and to keep the numbers easier to work with. That means he's making 8 ftpg which puts his average at 41 to 43 ppg.

I think the mistake you make is when you say "He would have to average those numbers night in and night out to get his 40." That sentence doesn't make sense. It's an average so it's not a night in and night out thing. He can have 30 one game and 50 the next game, all the way down the line.

Really, it seems tough but that's why many don't like comparisons to Jordan... he averaged 37ppg, lol. As tough as it seems to even do that, we saw it happen. I think OJ makes a GREAT point on why it's not likely in today's game (and I think Jordan is a large reason why the game started to change the way it has in terms of defense), but that's the only argument that really makes sense here. Otherwise we're just talking about a guy who averaged 37ppg averaging 3 more points a game in a day when rules have changed to allow players like him to score more... not much of a stretch.

I do believe OJ is correct on this one though.

[TajDeni]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Can you just talk about what you see or don't see in LBJ? Bringing in these other references confuses the discussion and makes it more difficult to see what your points are.

i was putting a bow on the topic that i brought up and the responses that i got from bringing it up.

what you guys are currently discussing im not involved in that discussion as of this moment; as you can see i havent been responding to any of that.

[slimm44]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

i was putting a bow on the topic that i brought up and the responses that i got from bringing it up.

what you guys are currently discussing im not involved in that discussion as of this moment; as you can see i havent been responding to any of that.

I was talking about comparing him to Jeremy Lin/Earl Clark and the BG/G/OG things. It got a bit loopy. You kind of sounded like Robin Williams in the Snickers commercial. "Win one for mother Russia!" Just talk about his skills/talents/accomplishments and how you feel about them. No need for all the extra stuff.

[CMH]

All I have to say is that with LeBron's play late in the postseason and watching it continue this year, I am a big fan of James now.

He now does everything I thought a man of his talents and skill level should be doing.

This is the greatness I wanted to witness. Now I sit back and enjoy.


Sent from my mobile device.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

All I have to say is that with LeBron's play late in the postseason and watching it continue this year, I am a big fan of James now.

He now does everything I thought a man of his talents and skill level should be doing.

This is the greatness I wanted to witness. Now I sit back and enjoy.


Sent from my mobile device.

And this is exactly what many of us were "criticizing" for. I hope people can see that now. It wasn't about hating by pointing out short comings of an obviously talented and already accomplished player. This is the player we wanted to see him become. Now lets see if his mental game has also progressed enough to keep this going through the playoffs.

[jeebs9]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Wait...was that a witness pun? Because they took that poster down already.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Was that a witness pun? Because they took that poster down already.

Still tatted on Bron's leg, so it counts lol.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

And this is exactly what many of us were "criticizing" for. I hope people can see that now. It wasn't about hating by pointing out short comings of an obviously talented and already accomplished player. This is the player we wanted to see him become.

The expectation, in terms of his progression, is something Ive never understood. The standard has always been that between the ages of 27-32 players reach their peak potential. And before the influx of hsers and one and dones that included the college experience. LBJ came into the NbA with as much expectation and pressure as we have ever seen. The guy was looking down the barrel of being the biggest bust, punchline whatever in the history of sports period. His response was putting up 27 7 snd 7 only a year or so removed from playing with children with an approach he honed while he was still a teenager. And he was able to produce at a superstar level without even really understanding what he was doing. We dont really expect young people to have the maturity to continually take stock of where they are with a view to constant improvement. Especially if their already excelling. The completeness with respect to his game that many have been callind for for years (posting up, moving better without the ball, a more consistent jumper) are things that most every most player on the top 10 list worth comparing him to directly didn't develop until they were right where he is or close to it. Why would we hold him to a different standard? I think he's right on time

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

The expectation, in terms of his progression, is something Ive never understood. The standard has always been that between the ages of 27-32 players reach their peak potential. And before the influx of hsers and one and dones that included the college experience. LBJ came into the NbA with as much expectation and pressure as we have ever seen. The guy was looking down the barrel of being the biggest bust, punchline whatever in the history of sports period. His response was putting up 27 7 snd 7 only a year or so removed from playing with children with an approach he honed while he was still a teenager. And he was able to produce at a superstar level without even really understanding what he was doing. We dont really expect young people to have the maturity to continually take stock of where they are with a view to constant improvement. Especially if their already excelling. The completeness with respect to his game that many have been callind for for years (posting up, moving better without the ball, a more consistent jumper) are things that most every most player on the top 10 list worth comparing him to directly didn't develop until they were right where he is or close to it. Why would we hold him to a different standard? I think he's right on time

Very true, but it was happening in reaction to others putting him in the top 10 of all time or other similar things that had some saying pump your brakes. Guys like Kobe, Garnett, McGrady, etc. didn't come out of the gate like Lebron so there was no real talk about them besides "I hope they turn into a star" type talk. With Lebron it was "Wow, this kid is actually living up to the crazy hype right away." I don't think there was a single person that didn't feel that way... and subsequently feel like he had a chance to be one of the greatest ever bc of it.

But he wasn't there yet and had clear holes in his game, as well as major accomplishments he still needs to continue to get before being placed at the level some already want to say he's reached. Think about the discussions. One big one was about him leaving to Miami. Some said he needed to have more stars around him, others wanted him to stay and try to shine with what the Cavs could put around him. I still believe the progression he's made would've made it possible to get that ring in Cleveland. Another discussion was about his mental state in regards to finishing as a Cav against Boston, as a member of the Heat against Dallas and probably some other series. Many pointed at his stats to prove his greatness, while others suggested that despite how great he already was, he still had a long way to go. That's the stuff I'm talking about, and most that were right there with me acknowledged seeing that change begin in the finals last year.

And this part is speculation but he was also criticized for his immaturity that came out in the dancing, some comments, the decision, trying to be a villain when everyone knows he needs to be loved, etc. That ties into his mentality on the court and his focus to become better. It seems like he's growing out of that as well. So I'm just saying, there was a lot of constructive criticism that was being categorized as hate. And I feel like a lot of the growth he's made is clearly in areas that we were saying he needed to to really reach his potential.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I dont disagree with what you say there. My only reservation is with the notion that many had that he should have made the progression to what he is now sooner.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I dont disagree with what you say there. My only reservation is with the notion that many had that he should have made the progression to what he is now sooner.

I don't think anyone is saying that (or maybe they did and I missed it). I guess I'll just speak for myself then and say I just wanted to see this progression... didn't really put a timetable on it. Hell, he may have never done it (and there are still some areas he may not get consistently better in). I don't think Shaq ever reached his potential and he is still probably the most dominant player ever. I just don't think there should be a problem with criticizing him or anyone else for areas where they can get better. I wouldn't put him down for not being able to hit 3's RIGHT NOW (for example) but would point out that he was taking too many pull up 3's when it's not a strong part of his game (see Finals 2 years ago).

[CMH]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I dont disagree with what you say there. My only reservation is with the notion that many had that he should have made the progression to what he is now sooner.

Like wwharton said, no one is saying that...or at least I know I'm not saying that.

But, just because we know it takes players time to develop into those prime years does not mean they all do.

And with LeBron he was, without question, ignoring the skill sets that would make him a completely unstoppable force in the league.

Granted his numbers were already great. I understand that. But with greatness we still expect more when we see it.

It's not fair to simply spot greatness and settle for it. Most of us that complained about his game understood he was playing great, but we also saw the potential to go beyond his great play into something legendary (Yes, hyperbole for the win, but I'm trying to separate the two in words. Not easy).

Now, those that complained about him to complain about him were just being complainers. I know I never complained in an effort to play down his talent. I merely complained that he wasn't doing the things that could truly place him among the greats. 27/7/7 is amazing. 27/7/7 efficiently is another level.

[ojandpizza]

Like wwharton said, no one is saying that...or at least I know I'm not saying that.

But, just because we know it takes players time to develop into those prime years does not mean they all do.

And with LeBron he was, without question, ignoring the skill sets that would make him a completely unstoppable force in the league.

Granted his numbers were already great. I understand that. But with greatness we still expect more when we see it.

It's not fair to simply spot greatness and settle for it. Most of us that complained about his game understood he was playing great, but we also saw the potential to go beyond his great play into something legendary (Yes, hyperbole for the win, but I'm trying to separate the two in words. Not easy).

Now, those that complained about him to complain about him were just being complainers. I know I never complained in an effort to play down his talent. I merely complained that he wasn't doing the things that could truly place him among the greats. 27/7/7 is amazing. 27/7/7 efficiently is another level.

And making 27/7/7 look way too damn easy is even another level lol

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I don't think anyone is saying that (or maybe they did and I missed it). I guess I'll just speak for myself then and say I just wanted to see this progression... didn't really put a timetable on it. Hell, he may have never done it (and there are still some areas he may not get consistently better in). I don't think Shaq ever reached his potential and he is still probably the most dominant player ever. I just don't think there should be a problem with criticizing him or anyone else for areas where they can get better. I wouldn't put him down for not being able to hit 3's RIGHT NOW (for example) but would point out that he was taking too many pull up 3's when it's not a strong part of his game (see Finals 2 years ago).

Maybe I haven't done a good enough job of explaining my view, wouldn't be the first time. I think the criticism of LBJ as it has pertained to the flaws he had in his game from his 3rd year to his 8th year were definitely warranted. But honestly for me it was like getting on a caterpillar for being butt *** ugly. In reality all you have to do is wait and then you'll see the gradual transformation. LBJ had to learn the tough lessons that most of the great ones had to learn before they rose to their peak. Outside of Kobe Bean Bryant there isn't a player more aware of NBA history and his place in it than LBJ. So my contention has always been this, yeah he's going to coast on his talents (thats what immature youngsters tend to do) but if he's really serious about this being one the greatest ever thing then he better make the turn when its time. And frankly its not like he made no progress in his approach to the game from year 3 to year 8. We saw him get incrementally better in some aspects of the game. We just never saw him make "the leap".

In my opinion, that Mavs series had to happen if he was ever really going to become the player he is now. Up until that point a great case could always be made that he bared less responsibility for his teams coming up short that anybody else did. No matter what he was as an individual, his teams (one could certainly argue) were not of championship caliber. The Mavs series changed all that. Not only did every other player on that Heat team succeed in their role, LBJ had played phenomenally up until that series. The Mavs had the perfect team to expose his weaknesses and make him come face to face with them. They effectively stripped him of any other place to look for answers. That loss was on him and him alone. And it wasn't just a bad series loss, it was humiliation in its purest form. The clock was ticking down. He was in that period where players either make the jump or peak out and never become what they could have been. I had prepared to right him off if he hadn't done what he did last year. He did though and he's in a space now where I'm sure how much more he can improve. He can definitely improve his on ball defense but I think his improved jumper and post game have pushed him over the top. He's taking the jumpshot now because he wants it and he's using it to punish the D, before he took it because he was forced to. There are some other things to, Im gonna let it go here because I'm starting to ramble. Hope I've come across clearly.