CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

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  • yankeesgiants
    I Drink Like A Champion!!
    • Feb 2007
    • 2477

    #601
    Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

    Originally posted by da ThRONe
    His plan of just relying on stars and large market teams is why most owners are losing money. He is too busy focusing on dress codes, players reacting to refs, and making kids go to school for one year instead of weeding out flops, expanding individual small market teams brand, holding ref accountable for doing a poor job, or maybe more than anything being innovative to expand the league.
    1. Marketing players in large markets was started in 1980 by CBS to deal with low ratings. It was stolen from NBC who did that for there college basketball coverage at the time. Larry vs Magic is wrongfully credited to Stern when he had nothing to do with it. NBC pined that phrase in 1979. 5 years before we knew who David Stern was.


    2. You seem to think that expanding the brand of small markets equal more money. How when revenue is generated by marketshare/population. Your never going to convince large markets to watch small markets. We have 40 years of Neilsen ratings to back that up. Large markets only watch large market teams. a 20 share in Memphis with 605,000 people isn't the same as 20 share in New York that has 19 million people or LA that has 9 million people. featuring Memphis means you left millions of dollars on the table. The NBA takes in more revenue from Toronto market then the San Antonio market simply because Toronto is the 4th largest market in North America. Wins & Losses dont matter in the big picture, that only effects unshared revenue.

    3. The dress code was to appease the people in premium seating because they are the only ones that matter. Unless your a season/premium seat ticketholder, you dont matter. Hardcore fans are just too stupid to realize this.

    4. You can cut bad players but you still have to pay them. This wasn't a problem until contracts became guaranteed. Only the elite players left college early in the 80's and early 90's. A lazy dope like Chris Washburn was done in 2 years eventhough he was the 3rd pick in the draft. In todays NBA he would be around at least 6-7 years. See Kwame Brown as a example.

    5. Never believe a owner who claims losses without opening his books. See former Eagles owner Leonard Tose as an example. He wanted to move the team due to financial losses. He was losing money technically. If you factor in he was paying himself 25M a year plus his gambling binges where he lost between 14-23M at a time.
    Last edited by yankeesgiants; 08-02-2011, 11:02 PM.
    I dont remember there names but they were allot of fun....

    Comment

    • King_B_Mack
      All Star
      • Jan 2009
      • 24450

      #602
      Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

      Originally posted by yankeesgiants
      2. You seem to think that expanding the brand of small markets equal more money. How when revenue is generated by marketshare/population. Your never going to convince large markets to watch small markets. We have 40 years of Neilsen ratings to back that up. Large markets only watch large market teams. a 20 share in Memphis with 605,000 people isn't the same as 20 share in New York that has 19 million people or LA that has 9 million people. featuring Memphis means you left millions of dollars on the table.
      Wrong. The Super Bowl just featured the Packers and Steelers going at it, the Saints and Colts at another time, the Cardinals and Steelers at another point, hell the friggin Seahawks and Steelers at another point. Those aren't exactly the cream of the crop in media markets. Now I know what you're thinking, the NBA can't be like the NFL and you're right, I feel the same way. They can't be like the NFL, the sports are too different, that said the NFL figured out a way to make they're championship matter to the point that the Super Bowl could feature my left nut vs my right nut and still blow out everything on television in its path and actual shut most cities down for the day because of everyone watching.

      Half the battle of getting people interested in the NBA Finals is not having everybody that has any inclination of watching it go into the ****ing thing expecting the refs to **** someone over seemingly intentionally (considering how little remorse they or Gangsta's Paradise himself show about said mistakes immediately afterward and in the following days/weeks when asked about it). There are ref screwups in the Super Bowl just like the Finals but the NFL refs and Goodell don't turn they're noses up at people for having the audacity to have seen them screw up and act like they're incapable of making mistakes while releasing lame and hard to believe 'apology statements' after investigation. Large markets will watch small market teams. It's a myth to say otherwise. If you're promoting your league right they'll watch.

      Comment

      • yankeesgiants
        I Drink Like A Champion!!
        • Feb 2007
        • 2477

        #603
        Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

        Originally posted by King_B_Mack
        Wrong. The Super Bowl just featured the Packers and Steelers going at it, the Saints and Colts at another time, the Cardinals and Steelers at another point, hell the friggin Seahawks and Steelers at another point. Those aren't exactly the cream of the crop in media markets. Now I know what you're thinking, the NBA can't be like the NFL and you're right, I feel the same way. They can't be like the NFL, the sports are too different, that said the NFL figured out a way to make they're championship matter to the point that the Super Bowl could feature my left nut vs my right nut and still blow out everything on television in its path and actual shut most cities down for the day because of everyone watching.

        Half the battle of getting people interested in the NBA Finals is not having everybody that has any inclination of watching it go into the ****ing thing expecting the refs to **** someone over seemingly intentionally (considering how little remorse they or Gangsta's Paradise himself show about said mistakes immediately afterward and in the following days/weeks when asked about it). There are ref screwups in the Super Bowl just like the Finals but the NFL refs and Goodell don't turn they're noses up at people for having the audacity to have seen them screw up and act like they're incapable of making mistakes while releasing lame and hard to believe 'apology statements' after investigation. Large markets will watch small market teams. It's a myth to say otherwise. If you're promoting your league right they'll watch.

        Wrong again because your not understanding pro sports and how it makes money. The Super Bowl can deliver a between a 40-50 share nationally. That is 3-4 million for a 30 second ad. When you can deliver numbers like that, marketsize doesn't matter. The Super Bowl much like the World Cup Final are defacto holidays, they dont really compare with anything. The NBA Finals in it's hayday never did higher then a 18 share nationally. That 18 share is now in single digits. What your also not understanding is that the NFL shares all revenues. The NBA doesn't because of the different rules for ownership. That means that the Giants Cowboys etc completely subsidize the Packers. There is not enough local revenue in Green Bay market to compete. Here is the other thing you not realizing. The NBA national schedule is out because the advertisers set the schedule. The NFL isn't because your local Fox and CBS affliate picks the games you see, not the NFL. If you dont like the game, call your local affliate to get them to switch it. The NFL only has 2 nationally televised games. MNF & SNF. All NBA games on ABC or TNT are national televised. The real money is in the local revenue. The lakers new TV deal with Time Warner is worth an estimated 3 Billion dollars All that is unshared revenue. Think about that and Add Knicks, Celtics, Bulls, Raptors, Hawks, Clippers & Sixers with there local revenue that aint shared. That is allot of money not on the table.

        The NBA's fall has nothing to do with refs. The fall has to do with the quality of play and this generation of players largely being unlikable for many reasons.
        Last edited by yankeesgiants; 08-02-2011, 10:52 PM.
        I dont remember there names but they were allot of fun....

        Comment

        • Dice
          Sitting by the door
          • Jul 2002
          • 6627

          #604
          Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

          So Stern is not going to take a salary? Probably the first sensible thing he’s done.


          OK, has anybody looked at this lawsuit that the NBA filed against the Union? If you look at page 4 under section 12 it states

          In the alternative, the NBA requests a declaration that, if the NBPA's disclaimer were not deemed invalid by the NLRB, and the collective bargaining relationship between the parties were not otherwise to continue, all existing contracts between NBA players and NBA teams(known as Uniform Player Contracts or "UPCs")would be void unenforceable.
          So your telling me that if the National Labor Relations Board doesn’t agree with the ruling that the NBA is going to put a torch to ALL CONTRACTS? Someone tell me how insane is that? The owners aren’t looking to cancel the season; they’re looking to kill the NBA.

          I’m not rooting for anybody in this mess BUT both parties are a hot mess. The players are just getting slammed in regards to public relations and how they’re being portrayed in these negotiations. Derek Fisher in particular is not giving the player a good name in these talks.

          Stern is talking out of the side of his neck as well. How could he and the owners call foul on ‘good faith’ negotiating when he and his compadres turn around and file a counter lawsuit against a lawsuit that doesn’t even exists? So much for trust.

          As I stated before, there needs to be a small group of like-minded individuals from both sides to negotiate the deal. I don’t know who BUT these are the people I can think of right now who won’t help in the process:
          David Stern
          Bill Hunter
          Derek Fisher
          Russ Granik
          Donald Sterling
          Any straight out of high school ball player
          Any ball player with one year of college
          Any small market owner
          I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

          Comment

          • yankeesgiants
            I Drink Like A Champion!!
            • Feb 2007
            • 2477

            #605
            Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

            Originally posted by Dice
            So Stern is not going to take a salary? Probably the first sensible thing he’s done.


            OK, has anybody looked at this lawsuit that the NBA filed against the Union? If you look at page 4 under section 12 it states



            So your telling me that if the National Labor Relations Board doesn’t agree with the ruling that the NBA is going to put a torch to ALL CONTRACTS? Someone tell me how insane is that? The owners aren’t looking to cancel the season; they’re looking to kill the NBA.

            I’m not rooting for anybody in this mess BUT both parties are a hot mess. The players are just getting slammed in regards to public relations and how they’re being portrayed in these negotiations. Derek Fisher in particular is not giving the player a good name in these talks.

            Stern is talking out of the side of his neck as well. How could he and the owners call foul on ‘good faith’ negotiating when he and his compadres turn around and file a counter lawsuit against a lawsuit that doesn’t even exists? So much for trust.

            As I stated before, there needs to be a small group of like-minded individuals from both sides to negotiate the deal. I don’t know who BUT these are the people I can think of right now who won’t help in the process:
            David Stern
            Bill Hunter
            Derek Fisher
            Russ Granik
            Donald Sterling
            Any straight out of high school ball player
            Any ball player with one year of college
            Any small market owner
            It's just a big pissing contest at this stage. no big deal, it all semantics at this point.
            I dont remember there names but they were allot of fun....

            Comment

            • da ThRONe
              Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
              • Mar 2009
              • 8528

              #606
              Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

              Originally posted by yankeesgiants
              1. Marketing players in large markets was started in 1980 by CBS to deal with low ratings. It was stolen from NBC who did that for there college basketball coverage at the time. Larry vs Magic is wrongfully credited to Stern when he had nothing to do with it. NBC pined that phrase in 1979. 5 years before we knew who David Stern was.
              Who cares when it started? We all know the benefits of marketing marquee players. The problem is they aren't using any other form of marketing. The NFL gives pretty much all their teams national exposure while only a handful of NBA teams get the same national tv time. So it doesn't matter who they put on tv NFL fans will recognize each teams star players. You don't get that in the NBA. There's a lot of good players that casual fans don't know because they get little to no pub and the little shine they get is from Sports Center.


              2. You seem to think that expanding the brand of small markets equal more money. How when revenue is generated by marketshare/population. Your never going to convince large markets to watch small markets. We have 40 years of Neilsen ratings to back that up. Large markets only watch large market teams. a 20 share in Memphis with 605,000 people isn't the same as 20 share in New York that has 19 million people or LA that has 9 million people. featuring Memphis means you left millions of dollars on the table. The NBA takes in more revenue from Toronto market then the San Antonio market simply because Toronto is the 4th largest market in North America. Wins & Losses dont matter in the big picture, that only effects unshared revenue.
              This simply isn't true. Cleveland is listed as the 45th largest city. Did fans from large markets watch the Cavs when LeBron was there? Yes! Why because fans of all markets had a reason to tune in. If the league give fans a reason to watch smaller market teams they will, just like small market fans watch large market teams because they have the money and free range to use said money to buy better players. Football proves market sizes don't matter anymore just the on field/court product.

              I agree there should be some form of revenue sharing other than just the luxury tax. One of the things I would like for Stern to do is get a tv deal like the NFL. As a league and not have each franchise work on their own individual deals. These are the kind of things I think a commish should do. Instead of the feast or famine type tv deals that we see in the NBA. We should have a deal where a team games is televised regionally. Which bring me to why I would like the season to be reduced so we could have set NBA days. Imagine if the league could broker a deal where TNT would televise regional games every Tues. and/or Thurs. nights and NBC or CBS gets 2 nationally televised games on Sat's morning/afternoon and TNT would get the Sat. evening game. On top of all the other reasons I listed in this thread http://www.operationsports.com/forum...-too-many.html . This IMO would make the league a billion dollar annually profit type league.

              3. The dress code was to appease the people in premium seating because they are the only ones that matter. Unless your a season/premium seat ticketholder, you dont matter. Hardcore fans are just too stupid to realize this.
              I don't have a problem with the dress code(anymore) I could careless what a player comes to or leaves the arena dressed in. My point is there's larger concerns than the players attire that continues to go untouched.

              4. You can cut bad players but you still have to pay them. This wasn't a problem until contracts became guaranteed. Only the elite players left college early in the 80's and early 90's. A lazy dope like Chris Washburn was done in 2 years eventhough he was the 3rd pick in the draft. In todays NBA he would be around at least 6-7 years. See Kwame Brown as a example.
              Hopefully we get a CBA that makes it far so nobody is forced to over pay for poor to average guys. If there is only so much all teams can spend large market teams can't go all "Debo" on small market teams. Which means small market teams wouldn't have to go to the extreme and give a star player superstar money to keep him. Everybody can(clearly there will always be exceptions)be paid at their talent level.

              5. Never believe a owner who claims losses without opening his books. See former Eagles owner Leonard Tose as an example. He wanted to move the team due to financial losses. He was losing money technically. If you factor in he was paying himself 25M a year plus his gambling binges where he lost between 14-23M at a time.
              I won't disagree here.


              The bottom line is the blue print has already been set to maximize tv money.
              -Make the sport easy to follow
              -Make the regular season matter
              -Push Rivalries
              -Keep the league competitive(for the most part)
              -Push each team regionally.

              Hell even pro wrestling gets it. WWE does 1, 3, and 4 and their rating are crazy high. 2 is a little different because they go year round.
              You looking at the Chair MAN!

              Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

              Comment

              • Kashanova
                Hall Of Fame
                • Aug 2003
                • 12695

                #607
                Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                Originally posted by Dice
                So Stern is not going to take a salary? Probably the first sensible thing he’s done.


                OK, has anybody looked at this lawsuit that the NBA filed against the Union? If you look at page 4 under section 12 it states



                So your telling me that if the National Labor Relations Board doesn’t agree with the ruling that the NBA is going to put a torch to ALL CONTRACTS? Someone tell me how insane is that? The owners aren’t looking to cancel the season; they’re looking to kill the NBA.

                I’m not rooting for anybody in this mess BUT both parties are a hot mess. The players are just getting slammed in regards to public relations and how they’re being portrayed in these negotiations. Derek Fisher in particular is not giving the player a good name in these talks.

                Stern is talking out of the side of his neck as well. How could he and the owners call foul on ‘good faith’ negotiating when he and his compadres turn around and file a counter lawsuit against a lawsuit that doesn’t even exists? So much for trust.

                As I stated before, there needs to be a small group of like-minded individuals from both sides to negotiate the deal. I don’t know who BUT these are the people I can think of right now who won’t help in the process:
                David Stern
                Bill Hunter
                Derek Fisher
                Russ Granik
                Donald Sterling
                Any straight out of high school ball player
                Any ball player with one year of college
                Any small market owner
                if that were to happen all the players would have to sign new contracts and everyone becomes a free agent?

                Comment

                • Dice
                  Sitting by the door
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 6627

                  #608
                  Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                  Originally posted by Kashanova
                  if that were to happen all the players would have to sign new contracts and everyone becomes a free agent?
                  Basically, if this was to happen, the contracts would be void like they never existed. So everyone would be unrestricted free agents.

                  So if the NBA were to 'Push the Red Button' on the contracts and they happen to come to an agreement with the players union, it'll probably be the biggest free agency period in the history of the NBA. This would throw the NBA all out of whack.

                  Maybe loosing a season would be better for the NBA. Not only would this lockout hurt the relationship with the fans BUT this would also hurt the reputation of David Stern. He'd beat Gary Bettman in loosing games due to labor strife. Maybe players and owners alike would come to the conclusion that Stern is the real problem and somehow get him out.

                  As much as Stern gets undeserved credit for the league's success in the 80's, I wonder if he'll get labeled as the guy 'Who Killed the NBA' if this goes into labor hell?
                  I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

                  Comment

                  • Dice
                    Sitting by the door
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 6627

                    #609
                    Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread


                    Quote from this article by SI's Jack McCallum from 2008:
                    It's difficult, of course, to get anyone in the league office to admit that a Celtics-Lakers Finals is more attractive than, say, Magic-Jazz. (You can feel the buzz from Epcot all the way to Temple Square! ) Earlier this decade, during the height of the Shaq-Kobe era in L.A., commissioner David Stern was asked what his ideal Finals matchup would be. "The Lakers versus the Lakers," he said. Stern took a lot of heat for that comment -- conspiracists have long insisted that the league smiles favorably upon the Purple and Gold -- and now tiptoes around the subject like a ballet dancer. When asked last month if revivals in Boston and L.A. had him juiced, the most Stern would say is, "Obviously, the Lakers and the Celtics have a special cachet because they're associated with the Finals." Asked last week to comment specifically about a potential Boston-L.A. denouement in June, Stern declined.
                    And this is the guy you want fighting for the small market? Let's also not forget that Stern is the one who suggested earlier last year that contraction might be an option for the NBA to secure it's success financially. I've been a proponent of this option, not because I want to see the NBA shutdown franchises BUT as long as Stern is in control the only viable option is to shut down those franchises that the NBA refuses to promote. NOW, if Stern was to leave OR they happen to get rid of him then I'd re-think my position on contraction. And that all depends if the new commissioner comes in with an open mind and breaks the chain of what the previous commissioners used to run the league.
                    I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

                    Comment

                    • da ThRONe
                      Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                      • Mar 2009
                      • 8528

                      #610
                      Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                      Originally posted by Kashanova
                      if that were to happen all the players would have to sign new contracts and everyone becomes a free agent?
                      When I read about the contracts being voided if they decertify, 1st thing that pop in my mind was "How the Hell will that work"?
                      You looking at the Chair MAN!

                      Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                      Comment

                      • Kashanova
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 12695

                        #611
                        Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                        Originally posted by Dice
                        Basically, if this was to happen, the contracts would be void like they never existed. So everyone would be unrestricted free agents.

                        So if the NBA were to 'Push the Red Button' on the contracts and they happen to come to an agreement with the players union, it'll probably be the biggest free agency period in the history of the NBA. This would throw the NBA all out of whack.

                        Maybe loosing a season would be better for the NBA. Not only would this lockout hurt the relationship with the fans BUT this would also hurt the reputation of David Stern. He'd beat Gary Bettman in loosing games due to labor strife. Maybe players and owners alike would come to the conclusion that Stern is the real problem and somehow get him out.

                        As much as Stern gets undeserved credit for the league's success in the 80's, I wonder if he'll get labeled as the guy 'Who Killed the NBA' if this goes into labor hell?
                        that would truly be a disaster, you'd def have super teams all over the big markets

                        Comment

                        • da ThRONe
                          Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                          • Mar 2009
                          • 8528

                          #612
                          Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                          Originally posted by Dice
                          http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ct.ending0421/
                          Quote from this article by SI's Jack McCallum from 2008:


                          And this is the guy you want fighting for the small market? Let's also not forget that Stern is the one who suggested earlier last year that contraction might be an option for the NBA to secure it's success financially. I've been a proponent of this option, not because I want to see the NBA shutdown franchises BUT as long as Stern is in control the only viable option is to shut down those franchises that the NBA refuses to promote. NOW, if Stern was to leave OR they happen to get rid of him then I'd re-think my position on contraction. And that all depends if the new commissioner comes in with an open mind and breaks the chain of what the previous commissioners used to run the league.
                          He just don't see the big picture. When your league is run properly it doesn't matter who's in the championship game/s.
                          You looking at the Chair MAN!

                          Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                          Comment

                          • WTF
                            MVP
                            • Aug 2002
                            • 20274

                            #613
                            Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                            I don't know... all of the top players cut loose, void of their contracts.... lower salary cap and a hard cap in place.

                            You may see some more "even" teams pop up. I don't know if you'd see the Heat take "that much" less just to play together, especially when your team would be strapped to get much more help.

                            It'd be like having the NBA start up an Association on 2k and do a fantasy draft
                            Twitter - WTF_OS
                            #DropMeAFollow

                            Comment

                            • ProfessaPackMan
                              Bamma
                              • Mar 2008
                              • 63852

                              #614
                              Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                              There is not enough local revenue in Green Bay market to compete
                              Lambeau Field???
                              #RespectTheCulture

                              Comment

                              • da ThRONe
                                Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                                • Mar 2009
                                • 8528

                                #615
                                Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                                Originally posted by WTF
                                I don't know... all of the top players cut loose, void of their contracts.... lower salary cap and a hard cap in place.

                                You may see some more "even" teams pop up. I don't know if you'd see the Heat take "that much" less just to play together, especially when your team would be strapped to get much more help.

                                It'd be like having the NBA start up an Association on 2k and do a fantasy draft
                                This would be super ugly and probaly would cost us more than one season, but when it was all said and done the owners would kill the players. This extreme isn't necesary plus I don't think the players had any intentions on decertifying anyways.
                                You looking at the Chair MAN!

                                Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                                Comment

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