The strongest punishment to side sway spam

[AlEx3KillA]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Fight Night Champion had a similar issue when it first came out. People would abuse the sidestep phishing for counters because the counters dealt major damage. It was unrealistic and looked terrible, people just kept sliding around in a circle around the ring holding block without proper timing.

Eventually they added a bigger stamina drain to sidesteps, so guys that would spam it over and over and over were usually drained in the later rounds and got knocked out.

I think a stamina tax on constant head movement like this would definitely punish the spammers......but im afraid it may potentially punish non-spammers too. If you are trying to defend yourself and your block is being broken down by an aggressive fighter....swaying too much will make it worse if it kills your stamina. How are you supposed to survive in that situation?

It would punish only people that sway too much not who does it only when needed the stamina tax needs to be made small or balanced

[xtremeba1000]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

I lost three matches in a row where the fights were close then they got ONE sway counter after I punished them for trying every time before then. Punishing them for swaying directly into a punch is not as damaging as it needs to be. Why is it a one shot KO if someone lunges into a punch or kick but if they sway into one its not even a rock?

[RetractedMonkey]

The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Geoff thinks that stamina taxing isn’t going to help/will make head movement useless. That second option is exactly the point. Head movement SHOULD be useless in the way it is now.

Head movement should be something you might not even use for a few fights because you can’t establish a pattern for the opponent. But when someone is being very inefficient with their mix ups and you KNOW with 100% certainty the counter is going to land; that’s when you use head movement.

I have a feeling part of the reason there is hesitation is because they made this cool new system and want it to be used often. Well, it has been used enough these couple months for the lifetime of the game. It’s time to try something new. There are several ways you could do it:

-Stamina tax on head movement itself. (Making it a small percentage of permanent stamina to still allow for potent counters. Maybe around .3% of total per sway with standard drain for the punch).

-Stamina tax ONLY when the counter is thrown. (This would make head movement itself cost no stamina, allowing for it to still be used defensively, but the counter punch will cost much more stamina, especially when blocked or whiffed. Maybe around .6%).

-Stamina tax activated after a certain number of sways. (Sways would cost little to nothing when first used but tax would increase exponentially the more times an opponent sways, especially when chained. After the tenth sway you’re going to be eating up a larger portion of permanent stamina. After the twentieth you’re going to start sucking air like Lando. When the round ends you will gain a portion of your “stamina bank” back so you will be able to use them efficiently again. This way someone can use sways effectively without losing too much stamina as long as they’re honest, so to speak).


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[emmdeekay]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Not saying a stamina tax is the best way to fix this, but some of the decisions on what costs stamina and what doesn't are completely arbitrary and inconsistent.

Get rocked. Lose Stamina
Get hit in the body. Lose Stamina
Get denied escaping the clinch. Lose stamina.


Bob and weave coming forward 500 times a round. That's fine.
Get stuffed on 85 takedowns. Also fine.

That said I'm not sure a stamina tax on this is the way to go. It already seems way too effective doing your best Holly Holm impression and running up a stamina advantage into a win.

What if a jab could only be evaded by slipping to the outside, if not it shut down all other head movement. Then people would either have to time head movement when you were going for a big strike, or risk getting baited by a jab to lean into your lead hook. I feel like it would add a degree of proactive strategy instead of just run away and let people tire themselves out.

[EarvGotti]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Geoff thinks that stamina taxing isn’t going to help/will make head movement useless. That second option is exactly the point. Head movement SHOULD be useless in the way it is now.

Head movement should be something you might not even use for a few fights because you can’t establish a pattern for the opponent. But when someone is being very inefficient with their mix ups and you KNOW with 100% certainty the counter is going to land; that’s when you use head movement.

I have a feeling part of the reason there is hesitation is because they made this cool new system and want it to be used often. Well, it has been used enough these couple months for the lifetime of the game. It’s time to try something new. There are several ways you could do it:

-Stamina tax on head movement itself. (Making it a small percentage of permanent stamina to still allow for potent counters. Maybe around .3% of total per sway with standard drain for the punch).

-Stamina tax ONLY when the counter is thrown. (This would make head movement itself cost no stamina, allowing for it to still be used defensively, but the counter punch will cost much more stamina, especially when blocked or whiffed. Maybe around .6%).

-Stamina tax activated after a certain number of sways. (Sways would cost little to nothing when first used but tax would increase exponentially the more times an opponent sways, especially when chained. After the tenth sway you’re going to be eating up a larger portion of permanent stamina. After the twentieth you’re going to start sucking air like Lando. When the round ends you will gain a portion of your “stamina bank” back so you will be able to use them efficiently again. This way someone can use sways effectively without losing too much stamina as long as they’re honest, so to speak).


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I've been fighting against the stamina tax on head movement argument every since the game came out(since the beta actually).

But after seeing all this mess for the past month and a half in ranked....i now have to agree that i'll be ok with a stamina tax on head movement. It's just way too easy to spam and gives such a big reward. In a competitive game like this, you shouldn't be rewarded so heavily for spamming something so easily.

I understand what the devs were trying to do. I really do. I love head movement. In every MMA game i've played since EA MMA i've incorporated head movement into my style....even in Fight Night Champion and UFC 2. But the way people are abusing the mechanic now, its not about skill or timing.....just repetition. Keep pushing the stick until your opponent gets his strike slipped....no skill required there. The sway/slip concept was a good one, its just a shame people had to find a way to abuse it.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Not saying a stamina tax is the best way to fix this, but some of the decisions on what costs stamina and what doesn't are completely arbitrary and inconsistent.

Get rocked. Lose Stamina
Get hit in the body. Lose Stamina
Get denied escaping the clinch. Lose stamina.


Bob and weave coming forward 500 times a round. That's fine.
Get stuffed on 85 takedowns. Also fine.

That said I'm not sure a stamina tax on this is the way to go. It already seems way too effective doing your best Holly Holm impression and running up a stamina advantage into a win.

What if a jab could only be evaded by slipping to the outside, if not it shut down all other head movement. Then people would either have to time head movement when you were going for a big strike, or risk getting baited by a jab to lean into your lead hook. I feel like it would add a degree of proactive strategy instead of just run away and let people tire themselves out.

I like this idea. The jab needs a major buff if head movement stays the way it is.

[emmdeekay]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Jabs and Straights interrupt all head movement but we bring back the dreaded parry, that only works against them and gets eaten up by everything else?

[johnmangala]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

With no freeze and free counter for parries.

But I would rather have the clinch parries/catch punch from UD3 that results in single collar or over/under.

[Serengeti1]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Two biggest issues in the stand up: Too easy to force an inside fight. Movement speed on high block needs to be nerfed or lunges need to be buffed. I see there is resistance there but something needs to be picked between these two imo. It's a big flaw in the game that you can just walk up to someone the way you can. It breaks immersion immediately and is unbalanced.

The other is the head movement which this thread covers in detail very well.

I hope something is done about the first issue mentioned because this patch didn't really make it any harder.

[SMOKEZERO]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

I like this idea. The jab needs a major buff if head movement stays the way it is.

The jab is super powerful against lower than tier 1 fighters. You do realize everyone is pretty much using guys with high head movement, right? Cruz and Dillashaw both have a perk that buffs head movement in round one for example. I use Lineker and can barely get out of the way of the jab because of his lower head movement and their strike speed differences. Really have to be tactical to win, but I only use lower rated fighters by choice and challenge. I don't want the nerfs to further hurt the stat stunted roster, because that's what seems like is happening.


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[SMOKEZERO]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

GPD, there's something going on with the pull counter (LB+RS) against leg kicks. The whiff animation plays out, I counter fine, but am taking leg damage. Is this intended?


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[Serengeti1]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

The jab is super powerful against lower than tier 1 fighters. You do realize everyone is pretty much using guys with high head movement, right? Cruz and Dillashaw both have a perk that buffs head movement in round one for example. I use Lineker and can barely get out of the way of the jab because of his lower head movement and their strike speed differences. Really have to be tactical to win, but I only use lower rated fighters by choice and challenge. I don't want the nerfs to further hurt the stat stunted roster, because that's what seems like is happening.


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This is more a skill issue imo (at least in relation to utilising the head movement well). Do you use stationary head movement? Do you use it whenever you're in jabbing range? I think I've played you on PS4 in ranked so I can show you how to be a cheesy ******* if you want lol. I often use Nick Diaz who has a 91 head movement rating and am able to do the same thing. I haven't even gotten comfortable with the style either because it's so lame/boring to play like that so haven't had much practice. Lineker has a 90 head movement rating so there's a one point difference.

[SMOKEZERO]

The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Play on Xbox and am not having a problem. Play realistic, don't spam. Lineker has a significantly lower strike speed/movement/striking stamina/endurance and so you can't out jab the tier 1s. The stats snowball on the lower tier so a 1 point in head movement will also be effected by the other stats. My point was about the nerfs furthering the gap between top and bottom tier is an issue I would like to avoid.


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[Serengeti1]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Play on Xbox and am not having a problem. Play realistic, don't spam. Lineker has a significantly lower strike speed/movement/striking stamina/endurance and so you can't out jab the tier 1s. The stats snowball on the lower tier so a 1 point in head movement will also be effected by the other stats. My point was about the nerfs furthering the gap between top and bottom tier is an issue I would like to avoid.


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Ah my bad. I think it was FINISH HIM I was thinking of. I think that's his name anyway.

I don't understand why you're saying the jab being buffed will effect lower tier fighters as much as anyone else like you're suggesting tbh.

Lineker is hook spam embodied irl anyway. And if you're having trouble... Pick a better fighter. That's what it's like in competitive play. Inches matter. Like I pick Nick at WW and even tho he's a good pick because of his bottom game... ik that there are guys who are gonna have a decent power/speed advantage over me... As they should.

[gtrimolet]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

man just look the second holloway vs aldo fight, aldo gassed because of his excessive head movement and he is a featherweight, imagine jds or miocic doing that like people do in the game, they wouldn't finish first round