The strongest punishment to side sway spam

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  • aholbert32
    (aka Alberto)
    • Jul 2002
    • 33106

    #601
    Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

    Originally posted by Serengeti95
    There are aspects about outfighting and inside fighting that are broken. The inside fighting problems are more problematic imo and for most of the community tho
    I'm not asking if there are problems (I assume that there are). I'm asking what is the current meta because Im hearing different things from top players.

    Comment

    • johnmangala
      MVP
      • Apr 2016
      • 4525

      #602
      Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

      Most can agree the meta currently is head movement and stamina.

      Whether you use it to fight on the inside or outside sways that.

      I would say the inside fight is more powerful currently as you can force someone into that game easier than otherwise.

      Comment

      • magx950
        Banned
        • Mar 2018
        • 72

        #603
        Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

        Originally posted by aholbert32
        I'm not asking if there are problems (I assume that there are). I'm asking what is the current meta because Im hearing different things from top players.
        less than 15% of my fights ever go to decision and I've been at div 5 since the beginning

        idk how you can call it a point fighting meta. people just abuse the stamina drain on the unrealistic back lunge and then when you're gassed they beat you inside

        Comment

        • bmlimo
          MVP
          • Apr 2016
          • 1123

          #604
          Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

          Originally posted by aholbert32
          Some of them are gamechangers. The GCs are all div 5 players except for me and some of them have complained about the strength of the back dash and the ability to basically point fight.

          So on both sides, we have people arguing that the meta is something completely different which is a bit confusing.

          ****, the back dash and movement is my thing on lower levels. 3 out of every 4 fights I get someone to start taunting simply because i counter strike most of the time and they hate it.
          The back dash is gonna be a problem, true... but unfortunately if you wanna play outside you have to use it...

          Comment

          • Serengeti1
            MVP
            • Mar 2016
            • 1720

            #605
            Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

            Originally posted by magx950
            less than 15% of my fights ever go to decision and I've been at div 5 since the beginning

            idk how you can call it a point fighting meta. people just abuse the stamina drain on the unrealistic back lunge and then when you're gassed they beat you inside
            This is the only reason I can see anyone saying outside fighting is OP. Because of stamina drain on the back lunge.

            Comment

            • aholbert32
              (aka Alberto)
              • Jul 2002
              • 33106

              #606
              Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

              Originally posted by magx950
              less than 15% of my fights ever go to decision and I've been at div 5 since the beginning

              idk how you can call it a point fighting meta. people just abuse the stamina drain on the unrealistic back lunge and then when you're gassed they beat you inside
              I didnt call it anything. I have no idea what the meta is and thats why im asking because I'm hearing 2 different things and some of the suggestions I'm seeing here and other places could push the meta further in one direction or the other.

              Comment

              • aholbert32
                (aka Alberto)
                • Jul 2002
                • 33106

                #607
                Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                Originally posted by bmlimo
                The back dash is gonna be a problem, true... but unfortunately if you wanna play outside you have to use it...
                Absolutely. Its the only way to get space. I dont even use it draw wiffs as much as to avoid getting drawn into a war every fight.

                Thats why I was surprised to hear top players complain about it and say that it was being spammed on the top levels.
                Last edited by aholbert32; 03-11-2018, 04:02 PM.

                Comment

                • bmlimo
                  MVP
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 1123

                  #608
                  Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                  I believe they can spam back dash... but back dash isn’t the Propper way to create distance... front kick, strike and move should be the key...
                  The real problem is that fighters speed walking are practically the same
                  Last edited by bmlimo; 03-11-2018, 04:01 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Serengeti1
                    MVP
                    • Mar 2016
                    • 1720

                    #609
                    Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                    Originally posted by aholbert32
                    I didnt call it anything. I have no idea what the meta is and thats why im asking because I'm hearing 2 different things and some of the suggestions I'm seeing here and other places could push the meta further in one direction or the other.
                    Why don't the GC's come on here? We can't make any arguments against if we don't know what the argument even is lol. Not helping. I know it's not your fault. But not helping.

                    Comment

                    • johnmangala
                      MVP
                      • Apr 2016
                      • 4525

                      #610
                      Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                      You can also not strike while they are back dashing, they'll only drain their own stamina.

                      Striking them while back dashing is like striking someone who successfully slips.

                      Either way the back dash has been getting complaints since EA UFC 2 (maybe 1).

                      Maybe reduce the stamina drain on whiffed strikes a bit from slipped and lunged strikes, increase on blocked strikes a bit, and raise the stamina tax on them.

                      Comment

                      • magx950
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2018
                        • 72

                        #611
                        Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                        Originally posted by johnmangala
                        You can also not strike while they are back dashing, they'll only drain their own stamina.

                        Striking them while back dashing is like striking someone who successfully slips.

                        Either way the back dash has been getting complaints since EA UFC 2 (maybe 1).

                        Maybe reduce the stamina drain on whiffed strikes a bit from slipped and lunged strikes, increase on blocked strikes a bit, and raise the stamina tax on them.
                        the issue with the back dash is that the invincibility makes no sense. punches can literally go through the model and it just whiffs. I've thrown overhands that would KO people IRL because they backdashed super late, but in the game they're fine and im gassed

                        Comment

                        • ZombieRommel
                          EA Game Changer
                          • Apr 2016
                          • 659

                          #612
                          Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                          Wanted to chime in before I go to bed.

                          I think it's important we make a distinction between 2 concepts here: head movement and evasion. Both are borderline OP. If you don't spam back lunges to gas someone constantly launching slip strikes, then head spam is OP because the other guy can force constant 50/50 guessing games without penalty (yes you can play his guessing game, but this puts your fate into the hands of chance).

                          And so a big part of defeating a head spammer at the top level meta is anticipating when they'll launch a head movement strike and then back lunging it almost on reaction. Gasses them bad.

                          The head spammers also feed off capitalizing on queued strike combo whiffs. So for example you (the aggressor) launch a jab with a queued hook and uppercut. The head spammer slips your jab and nails you with a hook of his own before yours lands. You eat extra damage because not only did he get the vulnerability damage from your jab, he got some intercept damage from hitting you during your hook.

                          So generally when you're trying to time a head spammer, you want to throw a hook or an uppercut, and only one strike at a time. Mix this in with backdashing on reaction and going to their body.

                          It's a weird convoluted workaround to something that should not be nearly this hard to defeat. I'm going to try to get a video out on this strategy by the end of this week.

                          The whole problem is the ability of the head spammer to force 50/50's for the whole fight unless you put yourself at risk by throwing a power strike to intercept him. Like, he won't just gas himself by attacking nonstop, and in my opinion that is a problem. Before the last patch, I lobbied for increased stamina tax on missed and blocked slipped strikes, and GPD added this, but the amount of drain he added was very small, almost unnoticeable. So people kept behaving just as they did before the patch.

                          This is why I advocate abusing the back lunge against them. It actually drains them a lot, the amount I wish just them spamming and whiffing drained them.

                          Now... how are the defensive tools in general? As I said, bordering on OP. The back lunge has almost no stamina drain for spamming it. You can block during it. The cage isn't sticky at all, so you can endlessly circle. Against someone who knows what they're doing and is trying to bait you to attack so they can counter, it can be maddening.

                          So you have two mechanics bordering on OP, the head movement strikes and the lunges. The lunges help to neutralize the head movement, but we shouldn't need to spam lunges to make a spammer gas himself. The spammer should be doing that to himself. When not fighting a head spammer, the back lunges are probably indeed OP because you don't need them anymore and can back lunge any flinch on reaction to gas the other guy for daring to attack.

                          It's a complicated problem. "Outside fighting" as a meta concept does exist in the game already, and if you want it to get better and more viable, the answer isn't to buff movement even more, it's to nerf head spam. Three out of the four head movement directions cleanly slip jabs and straights. That's a big issue when you consider a head spammer can throw and miss dozens of slip strikes during the course of a round and barely gas. They can keep pursuing you like Jason from the Friday the 13th movies.

                          The idea that the only way you can stop them is to play their 50/50 guessing game and roll the dice OR abuse the almost penalty-free back lunge spam is kinda sad, but that's how the game is now.

                          My ideal way to solve this is just to make head spammers gas themselves more by missing and hitting the block. Want to use head movement? Better make it count and hit clean. Which means actually thinking before you throw the strike...

                          Or you could tweak the head movement frames to evade jabs and/or straights less well, but I would prefer the former solution over this.
                          Last edited by ZombieRommel; 03-11-2018, 04:02 PM.
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                          Comment

                          • RetractedMonkey
                            MVP
                            • Dec 2017
                            • 1624

                            #613
                            Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                            Originally posted by ZombieRommel
                            Wanted to chime in before I go to bed.

                            I think it's important we make a distinction between 2 concepts here: head movement and evasion. Both are borderline OP. If you don't spam back lunges to gas someone constantly launching slip strikes, then head spam is OP because the other guy can force constant 50/50 guessing games without penalty (yes you can play his guessing game, but this puts your fate into the hands of chance).

                            And so a big part of defeating a head spammer at the top level meta is anticipating when they'll launch a head movement strike and then back lunging it almost on reaction. Gasses them bad.

                            The head spammers also feed off capitalizing on queued strike combo whiffs. So for example you (the aggressor) launch a jab with a queued hook and uppercut. The head spammer slips your jab and nails you with a hook of his own before yours lands. You eat extra damage because not only did he get the vulnerability damage from your jab, he got some intercept damage from hitting you during your hook.

                            So generally when you're trying to time a head spammer, you want to throw a hook or an uppercut, and only one strike at a time. Mix this in with backdashing on reaction and going to their body.

                            It's a weird convoluted workaround to something that should not be nearly this hard to defeat. I'm going to try to get a video out on this strategy by the end of this week.

                            The whole problem is the ability of the head spammer to force 50/50's for the whole fight unless you put yourself at risk by throwing a power strike to intercept him. Like, he won't just gas himself by attacking nonstop, and in my opinion that is a problem. Before the last patch, I lobbied for increased stamina tax on missed and blocked slipped strikes, and GPD added this, but the amount of drain he added was very small, almost unnoticeable. So people kept behaving just as they did before the patch.

                            This is why I advocate abusing the back lunge against them. It actually drains them a lot, the amount I wish just them spamming and whiffing drained them.

                            Now... how are the defensive tools in general? As I said, bordering on OP. The back lunge has almost no stamina drain for spamming it. You can block during it. The cage isn't sticky at all, so you can endlessly circle. Against someone who knows what they're doing and is trying to bait you to attack so they can counter, it can be maddening.

                            So you have two mechanics bordering on OP, the head movement strikes and the lunges. The lunges help to neutralize the head movement, but we shouldn't need to spam lunges to make a spammer gas himself. The spammer should be doing that to himself. When not fighting a head spammer, the back lunges are probably indeed OP because you don't need them anymore and can back lunge any flinch on reaction to gas the other guy for daring to attack.

                            It's a complicated problem. "Outside fighting" as a meta concept does exist in the game already, and if you want it to get better and more viable, the answer isn't to buff movement even more, it's to nerf head spam. Three out of the four head movement directions cleanly slip jabs and straights. That's a big issue when you consider a head spammer can throw and miss dozens of slip strikes during the course of a round and barely gas. They can keep pursuing you like Jason from the Friday the 13th movies.

                            The idea that the only way you can stop them is to play their 50/50 guessing game and roll the dice OR abuse the almost penalty-free back lunge spam is kinda sad, but that's how the game is now.

                            My ideal way to solve this is just to make head spammers gas themselves more by missing and hitting the block. Want to use head movement? Better make it count and hit clean. Which means actually thinking before you throw the strike...

                            Or you could tweak the head movement frames to evade jabs and/or straights less well, but I would prefer the former solution over this.
                            I think it's a series of simple solutions. Improve the responsiveness of lunges in all areas, even when getting punched and blocking. Then, remove all extra stamina drain from whiffing against a lunge. But, also enhance vulnerability for the one who whiffs. Then fix the head movement by increasing the stamina drain. Maybe make adjustments to the vulnerability on both sides.

                            Comment

                            • johnmangala
                              MVP
                              • Apr 2016
                              • 4525

                              #614
                              Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                              Originally posted by magx950
                              the issue with the back dash is that the invincibility makes no sense. punches can literally go through the model and it just whiffs. I've thrown overhands that would KO people IRL because they backdashed super late, but in the game they're fine and im gassed
                              The back dash is one of the hardest techniques to counter, not sure if it has any in the game. It does have a slight tax so it cannot be used indefinitely like head movement currently.

                              The back dash is one of GPD prescribed counters.. so it is used as a counter against pressure head movement etc.

                              I would think sprinting should be more effective against back dashes? They both consume stamina.
                              Last edited by johnmangala; 03-11-2018, 04:06 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Serengeti1
                                MVP
                                • Mar 2016
                                • 1720

                                #615
                                Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

                                Originally posted by RetractedMonkey
                                I think it's a series of simple solutions. Improve the responsiveness of lunges in all areas, even when getting punched and blocking. Then, remove all extra stamina drain from whiffing against a lunge. But, also enhance vulnerability for the one who whiffs. Then fix the head movement by increasing the stamina drain. Maybe make adjustments to the vulnerability on both sides.
                                We may not get along but I 100% agree with this.

                                I'd also advocate for slowed movement speed while blocking but that seems like the impossible at this point.

                                Comment

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