How is outside fighting considered OP?

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I agree with Aholbert 100% on this one.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Im all for better tools to cut off the cage and a buff to distance management at the same time, and balanced well.

As for the 120 strikes per round. We dont have nuances like hand fighting, seemless transitions in and out of the clinch, feints that dont count as strikes..etc

Would you prefer to just move around to fill all these voids?

I would prefer that stamina be increased to make throwing that many strike detrimental unless you have a high stamina guy. I would prefer damage to be increased a little bit to make it so that people are a little bit more concerned about getting KO'd if they are very aggressive.

One of the reason fighters dont throw that many strikes normally is most dont have the stamina to go 3 rounds at that activity level and remain fresh.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Real fighters can stay in your face all they want unless you give them a reason not to. If you were thrown in the cage with Rumble, he'd stalk you down, and pummel you to a pulp, right? Unless you gave him a good check to make him respect you, in which case he may back off.

Again, this is game, people are not worried about CTE or getting KOd and losing out on money, or a bigger career. They receieve a virtual L and move in. If people want to be in your face and be punching bags, let them.

Dont know if thats true given how high level players react when their play style is threatened.....or the fact that there is an entire clan ddos opponents...or the laggers...

Regarding Rumble, if he faced a movement ace like Machida in his prime, he would need to cut off the cage in order to stalk him down. If he didnt, Machida would use movement in order to fight at his range. Rumble wouldnt be able to pressure simply by walking in a straight line.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Dont know if thats true given how high level players react when their play style is threatened.....or the fact that there is an entire clan ddos opponents...or the laggers...

Regarding Rumble, if he faced a movement ace like Machida in his prime, he would need to cut off the cage in order to stalk him down. If he didnt, Machida would use movement in order to fight at his range. Rumble wouldnt be able to pressure simply by walking in a straight line.

So this example is based on 2 elite fighters? What about an elite fighter an an amateur? Because its completely possible to force an intelllegent fighter who cares about losing to back off as it is right now. If someone is pressing you backwards, you have condeded space by not punishing them for their advancement(which puts them at a disadvantage)

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Real fighters can stay in your face all they want unless you give them a reason not to. If you were thrown in the cage with Rumble, he'd stalk you down, and pummel you to a pulp, right? Unless you gave him a good check to make him respect you, in which case he may back off.

Again, this is game, people are not worried about CTE or getting KOd and losing out on money, or a bigger career. They receieve a virtual L and move in. If people want to be in your face and be punching bags, let them.

Have you seen Stephen Thompson vs Johnny Hendricks? Hendricks could only close the distance by cutting the cage off.

Zabit’s last fight was also as example of a fighter coming straight forward but being unable to completely close the distance.

An aggressive fighter can force exchanges but they cant literally stay toe to toe with you at will.

If they could Maia would probably be an undefeated champion.

Here’s a detailed article on distance control in MMA and it’s what’s missing right now

cagecraft.net/index.php/2017/02/07/cutting-off-the-cage-in-mma/

Quote from the Author’s final thoughts

“Distance control is the fundamental principle of good defense. Thus, it is also essential for good offense.In modern MMA, many fighters opt to use the most primitive from of distance control–running away to defend, then running back in to attack. Giving ground too easily is not a viable option against a skilled pressure fighter who knows how to cut off the cage, and coming straight in is not a viable option against a skilled counter striker.”

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

So this example is based on 2 elite fighters? What about an elite fighter an an amateur? Because its completely possible to force an intelllegent fighter who cares about losing to back off as it is right now. If someone is oressing you backwards, you have condeded space by

Its not about forcing them to back off when it comes to outside fighting. Its being able to fight at the distance I want. If I'm using Wonderboy (who has world class footwork), I should be able to simply use movement (head movement, footwork or both) to avoid straight line aggressive pressure. Period.

There are numbers of fights I can reference where fighters did that and if I'm controlling a fighter like that I should be able to do that.

This whole "everyone is going to run" theory is a fallacy. 1) I'm lobbying the devs to balance it by giving you tools to cut off the cage. So skilled fighters are going to be able to set traps and cut off the cage in order to initiate action.

2) Given that, people arent going to be able to as you said "land a leg kick and run the entire fight."

Whats going to happen is the game is going to get a little bit harder for fighters like you who want 100 plus strike rounds. You are going to have to be a bit more patient. Every fight may not be Griffin/Bonner. People are going to have to adjust but thats a good thing.

Ranked players love to talk about how diverse the top level is and use people like Pryoxsis as an example of diversity simply because he occasionally fights more off of his back foot. Well thats not diversity. He still is an action heavy fighter like everyone else. He still throws tons of strikes a round. His pace is 80-90% like everyone else on the top level.

I would love to see true diversity there but I dont think the top 100 really wants that.

[ungorborongo]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Its not about forcing them to back off when it comes to outside fighting. Its being able to fight at the distance I want. If I'm using Wonderboy (who has world class footwork), I should be able to simply use movement (head movement, footwork or both) to avoid straight line aggressive pressure. Period.

There are numbers of fights I can reference where fighters did that and if I'm controlling a fighter like that I should be able to do that.

This whole "everyone is going to run" theory is a fallacy. 1) I'm lobbying the devs to balance it by giving you tools to cut off the cage. So skilled fighters are going to be able to set traps and cut off the cage in order to initiate action.

2) Given that, people arent going to be able to as you said "land a leg kick and run the entire fight."

Whats going to happen is the game is going to get a little bit harder for fighters like you who want 100 plus strike rounds. You are going to have to be a bit more patient. Every fight may not be Griffin/Bonner. People are going to have to adjust but thats a good thing.

Ranked players love to talk about how diverse the top level is and use people like Pryoxsis as an example of diversity simply because he occasionally fights more off of his back foot. Well thats not diversity. He still is an action heavy fighter like everyone else. He still throws tons of strikes a round. His pace is 80-90% like everyone else on the top level.

I would love to see true diversity there but I dont think the top 100 really wants that.

I feel like RRR vs Holm is a great example of footwork being enough. Holly is known as being a "pillow fist", and through her brilliant footwork alone she looked like a matador. Ronda Rousey literally fights like the majority of online players in EA UFC 3, and in real life people with good footwork made her look plain stupid.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I would prefer that stamina be increased to make throwing that many strike detrimental unless you have a high stamina guy. I would prefer damage to be increased a little bit to make it so that people are a little bit more concerned about getting KO'd if they are very aggressive.

One of the reason fighters dont throw that many strikes normally is most dont have the stamina to go 3 rounds at that activity level and remain fresh.

If you upped stamina loss, youd need to up damage dealt by indidivual strikes to match the realism. And that cant be done apparently because of rock breakpoints.

Forward moving strikes already leave you more vulnerable, and are slower than stationary strikes. It VERY easy to capitalize on forward moving strikes.

Ive gassed plenty of over aggessive players in 3 round fights by making them whiff and punishing their body on over committed combos. You HAVE to put in work to get the results though. You cant expect to eat punches on your face or on your block and gas them out. Make them miss, make them pay.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

If you upped stamina loss, youd need to up damage dealt by indidivual strikes to match the realism. And that cant be done apparently because of rock breakpoints

Health Regen! The bug showed us that it can adjusted to make damage more significant.

But yes that would be the dream. Stamina and damage being realistic

[Solid_Altair]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I mean have you got evidence of this. What tools does the game give to me to keep distance and fight on the outside, other than retreats cause i use them as well, if you watched the video you would see that?
What do you mean by counter deterrent. If you mean by rocking them people are able to backpedal and wait until there rock is up and they will continue to press again, rocks dont have a big enough affect.

Your tools are to counter attack, in the broad sense of the term. You can do it by intercepting, by whiff punishing, block punishing, or pressuring the opponent after he concedes frame advantage (after his combo). You have to fight.

There are specific tools to create distance, but the bottom line is that he will catch up to you if all you do is run. The best way to get him to back out is making him fear coming forward and being attacked by you when his stamina and/or health are low.

Here is a simple example in the gif below. It was still when the health regen was bugged and super slow, but the principle is still the same. That guy could have retreated and likely survived, after losing the first engagement (eating the 2-3). But he kept coming forward and lost another engagement. That is the bread and butter of the game and the bread and butter of beating a glue-guy. Even without the actual rangey stuff, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't retreat.

<iframe src='//gifs.com/embed/ea-ufc-3-killing-the-glue-D9lmxy' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='640px' height='360px' style='-webkit-backface-visibility: hidden;-webkit-transform: scale(1);' ></iframe>

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Its not about forcing them to back off when it comes to outside fighting. Its being able to fight at the distance I want. If I'm using Wonderboy (who has world class footwork), I should be able to simply use movement (head movement, footwork or both) to avoid straight line aggressive pressure. Period.

There are numbers of fights I can reference where fighters did that and if I'm controlling a fighter like that I should be able to do that.

This whole "everyone is going to run" theory is a fallacy. 1) I'm lobbying the devs to balance it by giving you tools to cut off the cage. So skilled fighters are going to be able to set traps and cut off the cage in order to initiate action.

2) Given that, people arent going to be able to as you said "land a leg kick and run the entire fight."

Whats going to happen is the game is going to get a little bit harder for fighters like you who want 100 plus strike rounds. You are going to have to be a bit more patient. Every fight may not be Griffin/Bonner. People are going to have to adjust but thats a good thing.

Ranked players love to talk about how diverse the top level is and use people like Pryoxsis as an example of diversity simply because he occasionally fights more off of his back foot. Well thats not diversity. He still is an action heavy fighter like everyone else. He still throws tons of strikes a round. His pace is 80-90% like everyone else on the top level.

I would love to see true diversity there but I dont think the top 100 really wants that.

Agreed, most fights feel pretty samey, with just a small bit of diversity in terms of people's ability to time things well and mix up their rhythm.

Compare this to how different Cruz fights from McGregor, from how Daniel Cormier fights than Barboza, from how Woodley fights from Nick Diaz. I wish we could have the ability to replicate these styles better. There definitely has to be a balance, but I agree that cage cutting should be the determinant factor.

I am perfectly capable of counter-striking most guys who bum rush me, but it's not a satisfying victory. I want to be able to get a decision sometimes by playing it safe, like Cruz or DJ. I felt that EA UFC 2 was good at this, though it had some flaws in the way shorter fighters felt. There are definitely major improvements this year to make shorter fighters still viable as they are in real life.

Khabib vs Barboza is an example of one style of pressure, the main one we have now.



I want more of this

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

If you upped stamina loss, youd need to up damage dealt by indidivual strikes to match the realism. And that cant be done apparently because of rock breakpoints.

Forward moving strikes already leave you more vulnerable, and are slower than stationary strikes. It VERY easy to capitalize on forward moving strikes.

Ive gassed plenty of over aggessive players in 3 round fights by making them whiff and punishing their body on over committed combos. You HAVE to put in work to get the results though. You cant expect to eat punches on your face or on your block and gas them out. Make them miss, make them pay.

That is video game talk. The reality is going to the body is a good way to gas someone...but plenty of fighters gas simply by trying to push a fast pace and throwing a ridiculous amount of strikes.

I've told you this before. The UFC record for most strikes thrown is Nick Diaz against Conor in the rematch. The number of strikes was in the mid 460s. HIGH LEVEL FIGHTS HIT THAT NUMBER REGULARLY. They break records damn near every ESFL.

From what I see, people only think about stamina when it comes to whiffs or body punishment. Why? Because the game allows them too. You can throw 130 strikes in a round with a mid level stamina guy and still have 80-85% perm stamina the next round.

The stamina piece isnt easy to figure out because of the game mechanics but lets not try to add a realism spin to the way high level games play out or whatn reasons people focus on stamina. Its not realistic and that component of the game may never be. With that said, I would prefer if high level players just said "I like this pace. Its a video game. I have no real interest in the game being hyper realistic and I'm fine with it."


Because to argue against a movement buff simply because it may be less fun for you isnt a realism argument. Especially when I can give you many examples of how unrealistic movement currently is.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

That is video game talk. The reality is going to the body is a good way to gas someone...but plenty of fighters gas simply by trying to push a fast pace and throwing a ridiculous amount of strikes.

I've told you this before. The UFC record for most strikes thrown is Nick Diaz against Conor in the rematch. The number of strikes was in the mid 460s. HIGH LEVEL FIGHTS HIT THAT NUMBER REGULARLY. They break records damn near every ESFL.

From what I see, people only think about stamina when it comes to whiffs or body punishment. Why? Because the game allows them too. You can throw 130 strikes in a round with a mid level stamina guy and still have 80-85% perm stamina the next round.

The stamina piece isnt easy to figure out because of the game mechanics but lets not try to add a realism spin to the way high level games play out or whatn reasons people focus on stamina. Its not realistic and that component of the game may never be. With that said, I would prefer if high level players just said "I like this pace. Its a video game. I have no real interest in the game being hyper realistic and I'm fine with it."


Because to argue against a movement buff simply because it may be less fun for you isnt a realism argument. Especially when I can give you many examples of how unrealistic movement currently is.

I had explained the many nuances that existed IRL that we dint have in the game and are unlikely that we will get in UFC3. I asked if you would prefer moving around or footwork to fill these voids too. Because those voids have to be filled with something or we are just spending that time staring at each other.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I had explained the many nuances that existed IRL that we dint have in the game and are unlikely that we will get in UFC3. I asked if you would prefer moving around or footwork to fill these voids too. Because those voids have to be filled with something or we are just spending that time staring at each other.

I'm fine with that. Thats what happens in real fights. Footwork, stamina management and feints (the feints being counted as strikes thing doesnt bother me. Why? Because when someone in the ESFL has 120 strikes in a round its not that high because of feints. Its that high because he threw 115 strikes.

But here is the reality. I'm likely never going to get the game I want online. I'm very much the minority when it comes to how i would like to play this game. People like action. The difference between the elite and the average is ability and skill level but its the same pace.

I do feel bad for people who want real diversity at higher levels because they may not get to see it. I can go into my little cave, play offline and tweak the game to pretty much how i like it.

The folks who dont want to play offline arent likely to get that option though if the majority gets their way and that sucks for them. Any moron can just walk forward and wing hooks online but you better fire back because if not, there is no way to survive consistently no matter who you are using.

[Bigg Cee]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

That is video game talk. The reality is going to the body is a good way to gas someone...but plenty of fighters gas simply by trying to push a fast pace and throwing a ridiculous amount of strikes.

I've told you this before. The UFC record for most strikes thrown is Nick Diaz against Conor in the rematch. The number of strikes was in the mid 460s. HIGH LEVEL FIGHTS HIT THAT NUMBER REGULARLY. They break records damn near every ESFL.

From what I see, people only think about stamina when it comes to whiffs or body punishment. Why? Because the game allows them too. You can throw 130 strikes in a round with a mid level stamina guy and still have 80-85% perm stamina the next round.

The stamina piece isnt easy to figure out because of the game mechanics but lets not try to add a realism spin to the way high level games play out or whatn reasons people focus on stamina. Its not realistic and that component of the game may never be. With that said, I would prefer if high level players just said “I like this pace. Its a video game. I have no real interest in the game being hyper realistic and I'm fine with it."


Because to argue against a movement buff simply because it may be less fun for you isnt a realism argument. Especially when I can give you many examples of how unrealistic movement currently is.

Last night i was watching a top ranked player on ps4 stream. His name was “yesgumi” and he was fighting another top player named “Advaita_X” and it was a Conor vs Holloway fight and by the middle of the 5th round “yesgumi” threw over 600 strikes and “Advaita_X” threw over 550 strikes with still over 2 mins left in the 5th.

I was in shocked when i saw those numbers that i tried to screen shot the stream, but he removed the stats while i tried taking a picture.

That’s just insane and i don’t understand how that’s ok.