Is madden building on a broken foundation?

[BezO]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

...It's is a video game. Madden is a lot of fun to play. It gives just enough level of real football elements without being this over cumbersome clusterf*** of playbook, playcalling screens, gap assignments, coverage etc etc.

Yes, it's fun for some.

Tiered playbooks have been done before and it's not complex at all. If you understand the plays you pick in Madden, you'd understand a tiered system. It just allows more options.

Gap assignments don't need to be selected by the user. They just need to be in the game. If you don't know what they are, you wouldn't know they were there any way other than knowing your defense looks more like what you see on tv.

Understand that gap/contain assignments and reading your keys are the FUNDAMENTALS of the defensive front. There's no way around this. Not having them is the equivelent to not having routes for WRs.

That is the beauty of this game. It has that flexability and mass appeal. Someone last year made a post which nailed it. they want to be able to have junior play a game against his grandmother.

Nothing wrong with that. Because IMO the game also gives you deep elements of football, slider options to crank up the cpu, and yes I use houserules to make the game even more sim. Crap I have been using house rules with football games since Atari Real Sports football!

We're not on the same page. You seem to be talking about complexities. I'm talking about football. And what I'm talking about doesn't require any additional input from the user except maybe tiered play calling. And like I said before, it's simply selecting the elements separately. I don't recall anyone complaining about tiered play calling in the other game being too complex.

...Basketball.....let me tell ya 2K nailed it with 2K11 with their slider options. that game can be as arcade or a sim as you want.

The difference is 2K captured the sport in a way they can give those options. Madden doesn't have the animations, AI or set up to offer a sim experience. And the sim experience I'm talking about can't be had by changing sliders.

Have some fun with the game. Maybe you will enjoy it more.

I wish I could have fun with it. In order to do so, I'd have to forget almost everything I know about football.

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Very true. I will never sit here and say Madden is perfect or even in the same league with 2K11 or The Show 11.

But I have never expected it. I have been playing Madden too long to not understand their core gameplay and what it is. It is fun first. And IMO Madden 11 was the most realistic Madden they had ever made despite the bugs and problems.

I believe (going out on a limb) that Madden 12 will be the refined, tight version we have been waiting for and the numerous enhanements and feature upgrades are going to make it the signature Madden game to date.

I understand your enthusiasm, and I'm glad you have fun with the game, but I would be careful with using the word "we", in a statement like that.

You might think that Madden is exactly where it is supposed to be, but that doesn't mean that Bezo has to feel the same way. If he wants more realism in the game than you do, then that makes him different than you, not wrong, or "ridiculous", which is a word I've seen you use numerous times on this forum to describe other's expectations for the game.

I also don't understand the "no Football game is perfectly realistic" argument either. So because no one has totally nailed true sim Football yet, why bother trying?

Again, it's cool that you have fun with the game. I've been known to have a level of fun with it too, but why pooh pooh Bezo's suggestions for improving the game, especially when much of them have been done before with some modicum of success and are not out of the reach of what is possible to do with this title either?

I keep hearing everyone was ok with criticism on this site if you do it in a mature fashion, provide examples, and come up with suggestions on how to fix issues. Are we absolutely sure about that?

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Yes, it's fun for some.

Tiered playbooks have been done before and it's not complex at all. If you understand the plays you pick in Madden, you'd understand a tiered system. It just allows more options.

Gap assignments don't need to be selected by the user. They just need to be in the game. If you don't know what they are, you wouldn't know they were there any way other than knowing your defense looks more like what you see on tv.

Understand that gap/contain assignments and reading your keys are the FUNDAMENTALS of the defensive front. There's no way around this. Not having them is the equivelent to not having routes for WRs.

We're not on the same page. You seem to be talking about complexities. I'm talking about football. And what I'm talking about doesn't require any additional input from the user except maybe tiered play calling. And like I said before, it's simply selecting the elements separately. I don't recall anyone complaining about tiered play calling in the other game being too complex.

The difference is 2K captured the sport in a way they can give those options. Madden doesn't have the animations, AI or set up to offer a sim experience. And the sim experience I'm talking about can't be had by changing sliders.

I wish I could have fun with it. In order to do so, I'd have to forget almost everything I know about football.

The Tiered play calling is a great feature from the other game and it would be fine with me if it were in Madden. I agree.

I get your points now. I would love gap assignments without user input...yeah I can see wanting all those things you have mentioned.

I think Football has more complexity than any sport. 11 moving parts that need to move in perfect rhythm for a play to execute properly. I think representing that in a video game is also very daunting. I am not making excuses for EA. I just think it is tough. And I am no game dev and have no clue about game programming.


LT - I am not poo poohing on anyone. Especially Bezo or you. I respect your posts and find them very insightful. I just think expectations for Madden are sometimes misguided because Maddens foundation IMO has never been geared in the direction you may want it to be. There is nothing wrong with asking, wanting or giving constructive opinions on how Madden can improve. I think they do read a lot and have added a lot of requested features and enhancements.

The OP used the word in the topic "broken". It is not IMO. It is just not what some gamers want. And since there is only one choice for NFL video games it is really amplified and has been since 2005.

I do see some unreal posts though. And I think you know the kinds of posts I am talking about.

But I agree with you and Bezo and others on certain things that are not right with the game. But again just my thoughts, I think there is so much more right than wrong.

They are not far away from giving us a great football game.

And when I use the word We I am talking to the long time Madden pioneer players like myself who have played this game since it's first Sega cartridge. 11 on 11 football? No friggin way!!!


Peace

[IndyColts2]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

........yes

[Smoke6]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

First, I did nothing more than state my own opinion/reasoning. Second, I agree somewhat - but I do think part of the reason the game is in the state it's in is because those that are in positions of influence (including sites like IGN, Gamespot, etc.) never called the game out when it was really bad. Which imo would've resulted in us seeing more tangible improvements sooner, rather than where we are now - where it seems it's preferable to have low expectations so you don't come away disappointed. Coming full circle, when you cited a link to a Pastapadre article (that I didn't read) I was making a comment on his previous views on Madden over the years. And because I've seen many people placing links to his articles here, I feel he's had some influence - at least on this site. So I said why I think someone would place more faith in what they're seeing versus what they're being told they should see.

That's an entirely different discussion; don't want to sidetrack the thread of course. Regarding the game's foundation, while I don't know that it can be characterized as broken, it does seem to be extremely flawed. The game just seems to lack the identity it once had. They've had difficulty reconciling their desire to give people more precise control while implementing some sense of physics and it's presented an odd gameplay mix

Man, you are spot on with this post and very well said too, I have felt that way for years and being a subscriber to almost every gaming magazine thats multiplatformed based. I can tell you that the previews of the game always seem to be the "game is shaping up to be the best in the series from our hands on imnpressions", to the fact of the actual review being semi negative and contradicting there "hands on" impressions in every way.

Why cant the guys who do have that influence really speak up about it, instead of sugar coat it for that yearly early access and free copies before the game launches? If thats enough incentive to kiss butt for a free game every year, then we live in a shady world when it comes to material things and bragging rights.

If I had my own site or something to that effect, I would be dead on honest no matter what. You cant go wrong being honest and end up ruining your rep like most guys have done over the years when you really do see what they get out of it in the end, and thats just some interviews and basically beta testing for a few days with a free copy later on of there favorite game.

My gripes are really with gameplay and how well its misguided by individuals who are looking for arcade stats and stuff. We can play the game and make up for most of its shortcomings in a positive light, but when Tom Brady is at DB and putting it on a WR, then something is really wrong.

You really do feel that speed is the only factor in this game as WRs that should have more drops than the defense produces alone (when they drop int's) is enough to call foul. Like DHB, he can catch any and everything, but my "high paid, high rated DB" drops it like it hot more than than DHB would in one game when covered.

Its just astounding seeing people defend this game every year, I use to be like that and then I got older and wiser and started realizing we are getting milked. The game is fun when you do play with like minded individuals and the griping becomes even less, but its those moments of play that just makes you go WOW!

What really brings it to the light is everyone that plays "coach" and decides to do things with player out of there natural position and it ends of paying off big time. Running routes and then defending them is 2 completely different skill sets that not everyone is capable of doing. So when you see someone at WR that play defense all their lives and they're running routes better than most top WRs, you begin to second guess all the news and hoop-la that we get every year.

There is no definite seperation between players on both sides of the field when it comes to playing both sides of the ball with anyone. I can tell all of you to go outside and run "fist strong cover 3" and the only thing you would get from that is that its "cover 3"!

people go out to break the game trying to beat the CPU and this process carries over online all the time. Remember in Madden 08 how people were running streaks with the RB out of the backfield and he was wide open every time? Its things like that, and it keeps rearing its ugly head in madden and yet the MUT guys, get there wishes and prayers answered after a year of being a feature.

Sorry for the long post but some people are wearing blinders and some people are talking from the rear and havent even bothered to try it out on some of the modes that are spoken on.

[bucky60]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

And that's a fine attitude to take. However, some people contradict themselves. Some say they aren't going to praise Madden until they "see it for themselves." But they're sure quick to bash the living daylights out of the game based on feature lists, interviews, and videos.

If you're going to wait to play before you praise the game, you need to wait until you play before you bash the game.

Maddens track record on this current console isn't very good. Many people go by what they see, and also by what they have seen in the past.

[bucky60]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I don't know that much about football play design, but I know there's NOT any standing around, and nobody is left unblocked. I know that if a linebacker is standing still (i.e. his feet aren't moving), that's a problem. And basic.

I see this all the time in 11. Offensive lineman that don't block anybody and just seem to ignore defensive players. I have to disagree with you, unless I just don't understand what your statement above really means.

[roadman]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

First, I did nothing more than state my own opinion/reasoning. Second, I agree somewhat - but I do think part of the reason the game is in the state it's in is because those that are in positions of influence (including sites like IGN, Gamespot, etc.) never called the game out when it was really bad. Which imo would've resulted in us seeing more tangible improvements sooner, rather than where we are now - where it seems it's preferable to have low expectations so you don't come away disappointed. Coming full circle, when you cited a link to a Pastapadre article (that I didn't read) I was making a comment on his previous views on Madden over the years. And because I've seen many people placing links to his articles here, I feel he's had some influence - at least on this site. So I said why I think someone would place more faith in what they're seeing versus what they're being told they should see.

I don't stick up usually for critics except for Bill Abner, but I really feel that the reason why some critics rush to judgement on Madden is because they don't spend a lot of time on areas the OS crowd is interested in, plus I feel they rush to review it to be one of the first one's to post the review on a web site.

It's a race to receive clicks on their website.

Pure speculation on my part, but I feel it's partly correct.

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I can tell you that the previews of the game always seem to be the "game is shaping up to be the best in the series from our hands on imnpressions", to the fact of the actual review being semi negative and contradicting there "hands on" impressions in every way.

I don't stick up usually for critics except for Bill Abner, but I really feel that the reason why some critics rush to judgement on Madden is because they don't spend a lot of time on areas the OS crowd is interested in, plus I feel they rush to review it to be one of the first one's to post the review on a web site.

It's a race to receive clicks on their website.

Pure speculation on my part, but I feel it's partly correct.

I understand where you are coming from Smoke, but to be fair to these sites, they are the victims of bait and switch in many respects.

When they get to preview these games, they are under the absolute best of conditions, set up by the publisher/ developer. They are limited to the best aspects of the games, and that's all they get to see. If you only saw a small portion of the game, and it is full of great action for 5mins, you would have a good opinion of the game. Now when you get the full version, and you see that the story elements are terrible, there are bugs, and the action that you thought was great for 5mins initially, is actually as good as it gets, and it's actually quite repetitive when played for longer than the 5mins during the preview build, then your opinion can change drastically.

Not saying that there isn't some pandering to the publishers as well so that they can continue to get access, or that it isn't a rush to beat their comp, as roadman said. It's a combo of all of it, but the biggest reason is the bait and switch.

These game sites see the same demos and videos that we do, for the most part, and they are always aimed at putting their bets attributes of the game on display. It's like watching a masterfully edited trailer for a terrible movie. You don't know that the scenes in the trailer are, by far, as good as it gets until you actually see the whole film.

[mojo6911]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

When they get to preview these games, they are under the absolute best of conditions, set up by the publisher/ developer.

IGN Ratings of Madden on 360/PS3:

Madden 06: 8.0 "Great"
Madden 07: 8.5 "Great"
Madden 08: 8.7 "Great"
Madden 09: 8.8 "Great"
Madden 10: 8.9 "Great"
Madden 11: 8.0 "Great"

Really. Madden 06 is the same as Madden 11? Madden 10 was the pinnacle? Madden 06 was one of the worst games I have ever played and it got a "Great" score?

[misterkrabz]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I would rather just take HD versions of whats on the PS2 right about now and those games have way more than what we have on superior hardware.

Bulls eye...you nailed it man. Can you imagine the awesome game we would have right now if they just built on last gen's game? We could have interactive sidelines, better game play, all the bells and whistles.....it would be incredible. Instead they alienated over half the fan base by basically starting over on a crappy foundation to boot....I just got done playing the latest NCAA demo and it still doesn't have the feel of last gen and I'm not expecting anything different form this years Madden. I've accepted that it's just not the same and it's never going to be. End of discussion. It's sad but it's reality.

[TheDelta]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Really. Madden 06 is the same as Madden 11? Madden 10 was the pinnacle? Madden 06 was one of the worst games I have ever played and it got a "Great" score?

I don't know how it is in this day and age, but I know that a couple years ago, it was pretty much standard for high-profile titles that a magazine would only get the permission to get a review copy ahead of release if they guaranteed a certain minimum score.

I can easily imagine that IGN is only allowed to get their hands on Madden early if they guarantee at least an 8.0

[43M]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

IGN Ratings of Madden on 360/PS3:

Madden 06: 8.0 "Great"
Madden 07: 8.5 "Great"
Madden 08: 8.7 "Great"
Madden 09: 8.8 "Great"
Madden 10: 8.9 "Great"
Madden 11: 8.0 "Great"

Really. Madden 06 is the same as Madden 11? Madden 10 was the pinnacle? Madden 06 was one of the worst games I have ever played and it got a "Great" score?

IGN Sports games are reviewed by nerds who no little to nothing about the sport of the game they are reviewing.

As long as its fun in anyway to them, they will give it a high score. They have no clue how to discern if certain aspects of the game are working as they ACTUALLY should. Just read some of the reviews from those years and its evident. Real football fans can pick up on in. Casual fans and people who dont know much about the sport wouldnt really be able to tell unless someone told them

Also, its fairly plausible that they are getting paid off or that they are just trying to kiss butt because they do have a good relationship with EA.

[Broncos86]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I stopped playing Madden 07 for PS2 after maybe a month. It was the same system I'd seen for years. The same flaws, the same gaffes. Run-blocking was horrid to me. I was sick of the limitations. Franchise mode was good, but the game play was very stale.

Some are being truthful, but I think others look back at last gen with rose-colored glasses. Nostalgia seeps in and they think of good times. Last gen, people complained about the same things we complain about now. Super LBs, mind-reading CBs who never have to look at the ball, etc.

Madden 09 was, for me, a jacked up football game. The changes between Madden 09 to Madden 10 were glorious. I was DONE with Madden entirely, until I played the Madden 10 demo. Everything felt better about the game. Yeah, there wasn't a lot of "OMG!" moments. But at least finally I didn't feel like I was playing a broken football game that fed upon my blood-filled tears.

I do not believe Madden is built on a broken foundation. I think the frame work is fine, but reversing years of mistakes takes time. Madden 10 did a lot, for me, in righting a lot of wrongs. We've come a long way, very quickly, in what we expect in a football game. I think Madden has something positive going forward, and I think what they've rebuilt with M10, M11, and M12 is something to be happy about.

Some want sweeping changes. A new engine, physics, etc. It won't happen, not with this gaming generation. And this pisses them off and causes them to flame EA to no end. For those people, I can offer no solution, because no solution will please them. But for those who are rational, and who formulate opinions based upon common sense and reasoning, I can point out many beneficial aspects of Madden that will have them looking to the future of Madden with optimism.

[43M]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Bulls eye...you nailed it man. Can you imagine the awesome game we would have right now if they just built on last gen's game? We could have interactive sidelines, better game play, all the bells and whistles.....it would be incredible. Instead they alienated over half the fan base by basically starting over on a crappy foundation to boot....I just got done playing the latest NCAA demo and it still doesn't have the feel of last gen and I'm not expecting anything different form this years Madden. I've accepted that it's just not the same and it's never going to be. End of discussion. It's sad but it's reality.

LMAO...people say this every year, but then every year, they are back saying the exact same thing year after year.

If you accepted its never going to change...why are you here? You have nothing better to move on to?

Seems like all some people want to do is moan about the same things over and over.

And LMAO at the notion that last gen is much better (at least at this point). Last gen's gameplay is just as stiff and boring as Madden 2010 and 2011. Last gens presentation was even worse. The only real perks I see with last gen over whats been offered the last 2 years is some of the owner mode stuff in franchise mode, but I could care less about setting food and ticket prices. Last time I checked, this is a football game...not Amusement Park Tycoon.