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Old 07-16-2018, 07:48 PM   #65
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
There hasn't been a 100 rating since Devin Hester's speed. If ever there was a player that deserved it, it's Josh Allen's THP. He generates 20% greater release velocity than Brett Favre. He literally has the strongest arm in the history of strength or arms.
That is absolutely false. As far as Arm Strength and velocity go Brett Favre, Dan Marino, and John Elway are probably tops. I’ve personally clocked Marino throwing 68 MPH. And on top of his velocity he had the fastest release of all time.

Josh Allen has a strong arm. But to say it’s the strongest ever is ridiculous. It doesn’t compare to the three I mentioned. Drew lock has better velocity than josh Allen.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:53 PM   #66
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

Is the velocity thing even a big deal? I can't remember everyone getting so hung up about it until the past year or two, and even then some players who put up mediocre numbers, like Deshaun Watson, have seemed just fine on the field.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:57 PM   #67
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

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Originally Posted by stinkubus
Is the velocity thing even a big deal? I can't remember everyone getting so hung up about it until the past year or two, and even then some players who put up mediocre numbers, like Deshaun Watson, have seemed just fine on the field.
No it’s not a big deal. And it was talked about a lot more in the 80s and 90s. It was almost a fad to try and throw the ball as hard as you could back then. Elite arm strength doesn’t make you a great QB by itself. But it allows you to attempt throws that other QBs can’t and won’t try to make. Which can allow you to throw TDs when other QBs wouldn’t even make the throw. But can also cause you to throw more ints.
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Old 07-16-2018, 08:14 PM   #68
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

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Originally Posted by Kingd803
No it’s not a big deal. And it was talked about a lot more in the 80s and 90s. It was almost a fad to try and throw the ball as hard as you could back then. Elite arm strength doesn’t make you a great QB by itself. But it allows you to attempt throws that other QBs can’t and won’t try to make. Which can allow you to throw TDs when other QBs wouldn’t even make the throw. But can also cause you to throw more ints.
The elite arm strength line made me think of Jeff George of that era.
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Old 07-16-2018, 08:23 PM   #69
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingd803
That is absolutely false. As far as Arm Strength and velocity go Brett Favre, Dan Marino, and John Elway are probably tops. I’ve personally clocked Marino throwing 68 MPH. And on top of his velocity he had the fastest release of all time.

Josh Allen has a strong arm. But to say it’s the strongest ever is ridiculous. It doesn’t compare to the three I mentioned. Drew lock has better velocity than josh Allen.
Marino and Rodgers have a .38 second release, so does Allen. Favre has the hardest clocked throw at just short of 70. This is data I received from Brad Childress in Minnesota Vikings proprietary scouting data.

Allen has been clocked at around 75 several times, tops out closer to 78. Throws 83+ yards. Science and soul clocked him at 58 with one foot off the ground running to his left. I used to work for Craig Bohl at NDSU and I'm still friendly with several on his staff.

For the record, the methods used to clock Allen are far more accurate than the ones that measured Favre, and admittedly, Favre was closing in on 40 when those numbers were taken (not that that really matters, arm strength is the last thing to go).
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Old 07-16-2018, 08:40 PM   #70
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadman
The elite arm strength line made me think of Jeff George of that era.
That is a fantastic comparison. Jeff George had a stupid strong arm, I wish I had data on him. He doesn't get any press because he wasn't that good.

He had two really big issues; he got murdered his first year in Indy and never recovered, so he had this backward lean to his release. He threw the ball almost like swinging a bat, kinda using rotational momentum rather than fully stepping into his throw. The other thing is he was just arrogant and seemed like he didn't think he needed to be technically proficient like he thought his arm was so good it would just elevate him above the rest of the league alone.

So much potential.

George didn't have Allen's accuracy issues. He was able to put together a nice few years late. Pairing him with Moss wasn't an awful idea. Almost 15 yards per completion in '99!!!
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Old 07-16-2018, 08:50 PM   #71
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

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Originally Posted by stinkubus
Is the velocity thing even a big deal? I can't remember everyone getting so hung up about it until the past year or two, and even then some players who put up mediocre numbers, like Deshaun Watson, have seemed just fine on the field.
Velocity is important, but not as important as several other factors. It gets overvalued because it's impressive. You can't really perceive a quick release vs. an average one unless you slow it down, you can't measure short area mobility, accuracy is hard to quantify. Arm strength is clear and obvious to an observer, so it pops.

My personal opinion is the most important factors, in no particular order, are the ability to adjust the platform (side step, shoulder duck, etc.) quickly without losing accuracy, throw off platform, process information quickly, and release quickly. Go watch the highlights of the 49ers win over the Jaguars, watch Telvin Smith and just how frustrated he gets with Garoppolo's release. He gets great jumps all day, but the ball gets out so quickly he can't get too it and he just gets angry as hell. That's the main reason I think Garoppolo will be an elite QB (also his ability to throw off-platform and the rush doesn't phase him).

Great velocity does two things; it enhances a quick release and it handles weather better. The second part is really more about spin rate, but velocity and spin rate usually correlate. What is a problem is lack of velocity. There's a minimum velocity necessary to play at that level, which is why guys who are fantastic otherwise don't make it (Danny Wuerffel is a good example... he was NFL quality everywhere but arm strength, and it killed his career).
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:00 PM   #72
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Re: What rating are you most annoyed at?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
Marino and Rodgers have a .38 second release, so does Allen. Favre has the hardest clocked throw at just short of 70. This is data I received from Brad Childress in Minnesota Vikings proprietary scouting data.

Allen has been clocked at around 75 several times, tops out closer to 78. Throws 83+ yards. Science and soul clocked him at 58 with one foot off the ground running to his left. I used to work for Craig Bohl at NDSU and I'm still friendly with several on his staff.

For the record, the methods used to clock Allen are far more accurate than the ones that measured Favre, and admittedly, Favre was closing in on 40 when those numbers were taken (not that that really matters, arm strength is the last thing to go).
That’s my point though. You’d have to get data from Marino in 84 and Elway from 86 to get them I their prime. Like you’re doing with Allen. I mean you can go watch old games and see how much quicker Dan and Elway were in their prime.

Also in that video you have Allen in shirt and shorts. Vs Dan and Elway in full pads and uniform. And in love game situations.
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